Welcome To My Cave!

I have crawled into a relatively media free cave since Election Day. I plan to stay there for a little bit. Call it disappointment, information burnout, confusion or the need for space to think this through. All of the above would be correct depending on the time of day.

Confusion is exacerbated by the inability to connect the big picture dots between issues we face, failures we observed and the results on Tuesday. Could it be that big issues are not in play for Americans anymore? Could it be that we are rapidly approaching the fiscal tipping point so many have pointed to? Is the sense of larger context absent in a majority of Americans? Can Americans see beyond their own predilections? Are elections now purely an exercise in small ball, in ‘finding’ voters and instilling the appropriate degree of fear?

We have lowered the bar in terms of what we are prepared to accept economically. The ‘new normal’ is upon us. North of 49% receive some manner of government entitlement, yes I know, it’s a number that includes Social Security etc. The number is what it is! We have shouted to each other that it’s okay to keep us on this path. We reach the point where the full scope of potential government support is now nearly equal to a decent job. We convinced people that a change in administration would result in someone yanking their food stamps away. We could not convince them that the current economic path will result in horrific crisis including their damn food stamps, and that to avert crisis a new economic path was necessary. When in light of the past four years, we cannot make that argument to a majority of Americans, some serious reconsideration is demanded.

Marx famously said religion is the opiate of the masses, he could be wrong! Perhaps the true addiction is to reliance on something, anything other than ourselves. Perhaps the true opiate is a political context that does not require self reliance and does not encourage it.

Part of my disillusionment is my long held faith that, eventually, Americans see the light and reset the course of the nation. In this case Americans opted for more of the same. Americans opted for a President that, by way of his own budget documents, offers no new solutions and guarantees financial collapse. I’m not looking to vacate the results, they are what they are; the machines at work are much more significant than an obscure blogger.

We, as Americans, are required to ask the questions. We are also required to pay the price. Research, links to sources, anger and punditry are not where the answers reside, ideas are. So is our continued engagement, I’ll come out of the cave soon with, hopefully, some ideas.

  • The fiscal situation is indeed dire but this election was about small things such as birth control which isn’t even remotely an issue in presidential politics.

    Do we assume that too many voters don’t need foundational education regarding government spending, debt and capitalism?

  • B Mac

    One of the most troubling things for me is that Romney received 2 million less votes than McCain. For an election as important as this, it baffles me. The Republican base was supposed to be so energized that Obama wouldn’t stand a chance. Yet, 2 million more sat out this election. Obama received 10 million less votes.

    The big question is “Why isn’t America voting?”

  • Mike R

    Landreaux:

    I feel your pain, and believe me I’m not trying to be funny. I’ve recognized from the first time I came to this site that you think and you care. You care about your country, and when your vision for it takes a blow you don’t react with a kneejerk rant. You do what a thinker does; you think. You and I disagree about much, but I hope we can agree to respect each other’s motives.

    I suspect the core of your despair lies in a belief I think you share with many others who visit this site: the belief that this election demonstrates that the country has reached a state of moral degeneracy where the majority of voters cast their ballots in the hope of getting something free from the government. If I believed that, I’d be in despair too.

    I’m an old man, and I’ve been around a little. I’ve known many a lazy, shiftless moocher. Such people will mooch off anyone they can, including the government. But I also know this: they are a small minority, and they don’t get off their lazy asses to vote for anybody.

    There is, and always has been, a large group of poorly informed voters who select a candidate for frivolous reasons— they like the way he looks, or he seems to be a nice guy, or he shares their race or their religion. I think these people cancel out each others votes and can be dismissed as an important factor.

    So why did people vote for the president? Some are worried about the environment and believe the Republicans are wearing blinders on the issue. Some believe the financial collapse was caused by reckless Wall Street bankers and that the governor would give them free rein. Some felt Mr. Romney has taken various positions on various issues and doesn’t really believe in anything. Some felt he is out of touch with the realities of life for middle and working class people.

    I know many people from both persuasions. Not one of my acquaintances who voted for Mr. Obama did so in hopes of material reward.

    I know you believe that the president’s policies will wreck the economy. That’s no small concern, and I haven’t addressed it here. I just want to dispose of the idea that we have reached some kind of tipping point in terms of responsibility and self reliance. There’s just no evidence for that. Enjoy your cave, and make good use of the time.

  • Bill Hedges

    After massive exit of demos Nov. 2, 2010, already buma is a lame duck with House MORE Republican. Nov. 2, 2010 was a vote against buma;’s agenda which polls showed prior to Nov. 2, 2010 election.

    Massive taxes to kick in to pay for bumcare UPCOMING. Besides that, CBO says will ruin America. bumcare was calculated to mature AFTER THIS ELECTION. WHY make folks suffer, IN WAITING, if not to get re-elected FIRST ???

    “Five major ObamaCare taxes that will hit your wallet in 2013

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/05/five-major-obamacare-taxes-that-will-hit-your-wallet-in-2013/#ixzz2Bm1jGWBF”

    DON’T forget massive tax increase if Bush’s tax cut extension is not renewed. Applies not just towards the rich.

    Can poor social security continue to be cut from folks pay stubs ???

    “The Obamacare Gift Basket”

    http://spectator.org/archives/2012/09/26/the-obamacare-gift-basket

  • Mike R,

    Be assured that despite disagreements I most certainly respect your motives, and always value the context that comes with advancing age.

    You, as well, my friend are also, clearly a thoughtful individual.

    I don’t engage in rants very often, occasionally, but not often certain situations deserve a rant. I value civil engagement of issues, I never enter an issue thinking I have the ‘answer’ but I do enter thinking to best of my feable abilities.

    What led me to Conservatism was that exact process. I came to believe that hard core liberal thinking always hit a point where the trail of logic breaks down, where easily anticipated consequences were ignored.

    No doubt Liberal thinkers find the same flaws in Conservatism. A vast majority of what I begin to write never sees these pages; I’ll take off on a track and find that I can’t connect the dots within that initial point of view, my own logic breaks down. My trash can is usually full with crumpled notes.

    We, all of us, must, in a civil fashion, fight the war of ideas. We will over the next two years see the impact of the President’s ideas. Having carefully studied those ideas, they scare me. The main reason they scare me is that the most impactful of those ideas and the thinkers that spawned them argue that the ends always justify the means, that th big lie is justified in service to the cause. It’s not occasional, it’s fundamental.

    I’ll look forward to your future comments.

  • Mike R

    Landreaux:

    Could you expand a little on your statements about the end justifying the means and the big lie? I don’t understand what you’re referring to.

  • Bob

    Nate:

    You hit the nail on the head when you stated this election was about the small issues.It isn’t that many voters “don’t need foundational education regarding government spending,debt and capitalism”…..they just don’t want it. I believe as I said earlier the Democratic parties knew they didn’t have a record to stand on so they resulted to wholesale pandering to idenity politics.The President has been of the opinion that “we are our brothers keepers” and if I’m not mistaken said during his acceptance speech this past summer “government is the only thing that we all belong to”. I don’t think you can fault Mr.Romney nor the Republican party for the lapse.Who would have quessed that the public wouldn’t have looked at the economic state of the nation and would have taken his rhetoric so seriously?

    While the dialogue on this site has been civil there has been little solid opinion given thus far by either moderators or comment contributors about the cause and the remedy to the debacle of Election Day 2012. Listening to the media pundits explain the obvious and some even respected Conservatives endorseing the idea that the Republican party should pander in order to get elected is just an echo chamber of one another.I would enjoy hearing what the grass roots of the Republican party has to say.Republicans have lost 4 of the last 6 presidential elections. What direction do we take and who is to lead us.Are we going to complain about the direction the country is taking and continue with re-electing this “army of occupation” in Washington election after election? Are we going to continue with primogeniture in nominating Republican candidates?

    NOW is the time to discuss this not wait until 2016! Principles don’t follow election returns and neither does the need to uphold them.

  • Bob,

    Hang in there. The issues are complex and deserve careful attention and consideration. I’m confident that the readers of the site will come forward with suggestions, as will I. But, to view them in context, and consider the interconnections may take a little time. It’s so very easy to find dead ends.

  • Mike,

    The theorists of the left have always promoted the ‘big lie’ as a political tool. The have no reluctance to represent alternative realities that have little to do with factual representations. As a place to start I would recommend Jonah Goldberg’s book ‘Liberal Fascism’. It’s a fairly comprehensive outline of the history of leftist thinking and the tactics they rely on. The ‘Big Lie’ is frequently associated with Adolph Hitler but he was far from the first. Decades of Leftist thinkers preceeded him with this idea.

  • Mike R

    Landreaux:

    I haven’t read the book. I looked it up and read a synopsis and browsed through some criticism. You say it is a fairly comprehensive outline of the history of leftist thinking. So far as I have been able to tell, the book deals exclusively with the twentieth century. You can’t begin to understand the history of liberalism without tracing it back as far as the 17th century. Obviously, this is not the forum for me to try to do that.

    The idea that fascism has liberal roots has gained some currency on the right in the past few years. I haven’t read this book (I will), but insofar as I have examined the arguments, the idea doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

    Fascism relied on extreme nationalism and militarism. These ideas are the antithesis of liberalism, which tends toward internationism and pacifism. By the second week of his Chancellorship, long before he began rounding up Jews, Hitler was imprisoning, torturing and killing communists, trade union leaders and influential liberals. Mussolini did the same thing. This was not a case of a dictator turning on his erstwhile allies, as Stalin did with the purge trials. These people had been his enemies from the start, and he wasted no time disposing of them.

    There are still a few fascists around. Thirty five years ago, I was fighting swastika-wearing racists on the streets of Chicago. There were no conservatives among the nazi-fighters. They were all people of the left. To argue that fascism is a liberal ideology is to stand reality on it’s head.

    In the 20th century, both conservatism and liberalism generated extreme wings. The right produced fascism; the left produced communism. These extreme ideologies between them murdered millions. We can hope that mankind has learned something about ideological extremism from this great tragedy. It will help if we have clear understanding of what those ideologies were and are.

    I’ve heard people call Governor Romney a fascist, and I’ve heard people call President Obama a communist. This nonsense is born of ignorance and the general degeneration of manners that afflicts our national discussion.

    Extreme ideology always relies on ‘the big lie.’. That’s true on the right and the left. As you search out on the edges of either wing you enter a dark swamp of lies, rumors and conspiracy theories.

    Conservatism and liberalism are the yin and yang of modern society. The complete defeat of either one would be catostrophic. If liberalism had a clear field, it would soon produce the sad stagnant poverty you fear. If conservativism had a clear field it would produce rule by a ruthless plutocracy. Conservatism is as old as the human race. At it’s core it is the set of ‘eternal verities’ that demand a standard of behavior for the individual. Liberalism is young; it was born with the scientific revolution of the 16th century and the idea that human beings could develop better and more rational ways of governing themselves. Over four centuries it has gone through a series of manifestations, transforming conservatism along the way. I can’t offer you a single book. A history of 16th century British empiricism, the 18th century French enlightenment, English classical liberalism (which was much like todays libertarianism), the Manchester School, the emergence of social liberalism and it’s opponent, Spencerian social darwinism, would all be necessary. I,of course, don’t know how much of this history you are familiar with. It’s too bad we can’t sit down and talk about these things.

    I look forward to your response to any or all of this.

  • Mike R

    Oops….17th century British empiricism.

  • Bill Hedges

    “Oops….17th century British empiricism.”

    INTERESTING. Not my cup of TEA. History got us to where we are. Time has fused the mix to different level.

    I think history has its place. They say Patton read Rommel’s book & beat Rommel in a tank battle. Their are certainly lessons to be learned from Hitler. My merchant German grandparents never spoke of times in Germany before they fled Hitler. 17th century is a hobby to read in my book.

    All that is well & good but voter’s vote wallet & self interest FIRST. John Kerry slaps taxes as Congress man but parks his yacht in another State in order to pay less taxes. WHAT LESSON CAN BE LEARNED FROM THIS ? Rich avoid paying taxes. We all do. Same for raising taxes on cigs. Why business leaves or don’t move to California & New York. Why new Gov. of WI was not recalled with improving government economic situation despite union’s in-bedded strong power in that State and malcontent with Walkers anti union actions. WAS GOOD FOR THE WALLET.

    How many times do we hear Bush did not pay for HIS WARS. You really think these were his wars ? Quotes on Internet are forever. Iraq was was Democrat war as well. WHY did demos not pay for their war ?:

    “Democrat Quotes on Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction ”

    http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm

    I only bring this up to show how hyromonious some folks get. My side cares not for the environment. We don’t breath air nor drink water. Poor can just die. Funny, Bush has on his mantle awards for helping people in Africa. Bush had alternative energy effient home BEFORE AL GORE. UNBELIEVABLE isn’t it. Mitt gave more to charity than buma even considering by % of pay to charity donation.

    I watch Judge Judy & parking tickets reality show. Say anything to look good & preserve ones pocketbook. I parked illegally only 15 seconds they tell the tow truck driver. When it took tow driver near a hour to get there with plate number in-hand. Same nonsense on car repro reality shows. So few admit their fault. Mostly you hear I PAID TODAY. You’re not taking my vehicle.

    Wallet & self interest FIRST. There is the reason election result.

    TRY & get a liberal to say social security is earned & not just a entitlement. Those on s/s quickly outspend what they paid in. Such a inaccurate statement that many believe. My “donation” is small part of whole story. Employers match me. Interest for say 40 years. LIE by ommission liberal. Worse lie of all. Playing on stupidity of people.

    In same vein is “simple math”. Trade mark phase of buma. Like raise taxes on rich for “fairness”. Weeks ahead battle over raising debt level & hikes of tax rates on rich will be battled. Countless times I have gave my all CBO real numbers links that prove tax cuts for rich INCREASES government revenue and relieves non-rich of need to pay taxes. Never a sound from liberals hinting at being untrue with facts. Then liberals nearly always lacks economic differing DATA. FEELING RULES. That’s “simple math”. You cut tax rate on rich, you lose revenue. “Simple math”. SADLY, CBO real numbers are not aware of principles of “simple math”. For awhile I have not wrote on Bill C.’s tax increases vs Newt’s tax cuts. Both done in short period of time making comparison easy. DOES INCREASING TAXES ON RICH INCREASE GOVERNMENT REVENUE or DOES DECRASING TAXES ON RICH INCREASE GOVERNMENT REVENUE BY CREATING JOBS MORE ?????????

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/3701/who-really-benefited-from-the-bush-tax-cuts

    No doubt buma won this argument IN PUBLIC OPINION & VOTE (DOES NOT MAKE IT A TRUE FACT) & has 4 more years. FACTS DON’T SUPPORT HIM. Liberals run as fast as they can away from DATA. Why I hear link is BIAS or is IGNORED. Data is a liberal no no give. THAT TELLS IT ALL:

    “The Myth of the Clinton Surplus”

    http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

    “Debunking Liberal Myths About Tax Cuts and the Economy”

    “MYTH: Raising taxes in the 1990s caused the boom years of that decade. This proves that raising taxes leads to economic growth.”

    “FACT: Tax cuts, not tax hikes, caused the boom years of the 1990s. The economy grew modestly after Clinton raised taxes in 1993, but the economy grew even more after Clinton signed the tax cuts that were passed by the Republican-controlled Congress under Newt Gingrich’s leadership in 1997.”

    “Dr. J. D. Foster”:

    “Following the [Clinton] tax hike, the economy performed reasonably well, but not as well as one would expect given the conditions at the time. The real economic boom came later in the decade, just when the economy should have slowed as it made the transition from a period of recovery to normal expansion. Further, this acceleration coincided to a remarkable degree with the 1997 tax cut. . . .”

    “In 1997, the Republican-led Congress passed a tax-relief and deficit-reduction bill that was resisted but ultimately signed by President Clinton. The 1997 bill”:

    “* Lowered the top capital gains tax rate from 28 percent to 20 percent;

    * Created a new $500 child tax credit;

    * Established the new Hope and Lifetime Learning tax credits to reduce the after-tax costs of higher education;

    * Extended the air transportation excise taxes;

    * Phased in an increase in the estate tax exemption from $600,000 to $1 million;

    * Established Roth IRAs and increased the income limits for deductible IRAs;

    * Established education IRAs;

    * Conformed AMT depreciation lives to regular tax lives; and

    * Phased in a 15 cent-per-pack increase in the cigarette tax. . . .”

    “In 1995, the first year for which these data are available, just over $8 billion in venture capital was invested. Venture capital is especially critical to a vibrant economy because high-risk/high-return investment permits promising new businesses to blossom, rapidly spreading new technologies and new ideas into the marketplace and across the economy. Such investments, when successful, generate returns to investors that are subject primarily to the tax on capital gains. By 1998, the first full year in which the lower capital gains rates were in effect, venture capital activity reached almost $28 billion, more than a three-fold increase over 1995 levels, and by 1999, it had doubled yet again. (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm1835.cfm)”

    http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/taxcutmyths.htm

    MY NEW LINK:

    “The Big Lie: Clinton’s Tax Increases Did Not Create The 90s Boom & 22 Million Jobs ”

    “According to the original Treasury Department estimates, the Clinton tax hike was to raise federal revenues by 0.36% of GDP in its first year and by 0.83% of GDP in its fourth year, when all provisions were in effect and timing differences associated with near-term taxpayer behaviours had normalised. Tax receipts were relatively static in 1993 and 1994, so I wouldn’t read that as a positive created by the 1993 tax rises. , .”

    “In the four years following the Clinton tax hike (from 1993 through 1996)”:

    “* The economy grew at an average annual rate of 3.2% in inflation-adjusted terms, .

    * Average real hourly wages rose a total of five cents per hour, according to the Bureau of Labour Statistics’ data on average hourly earnings for non-supervisory employees; and

    * Total market capitalisation of the S&P 500 rose 78% in inflation-adjusted terms, .

    * Economic growth was solid, but hardly spectacular in the years immediately following the 1993 tax increase. This is not really that surprising. The rule is “the deeper the recession, the stronger the growth in the post-recessionary period.“ Compared with the economic performance after the 1981-1982 recession, it was very mild, indeed. Job growth was strong, as expected.

    * The stock market performed well, but real wage growth was nearly non-existent.

    * The economy started to slow at the end of 1994 and early 1995 and by the end of the year, GDP had nearly returned to its 1993 level.

    * In 1995, the annual report of the United States Trade Representative was already claiming that “[T]he United States market has hard limits on its growth; we have a mature economy and economic growth is beginning to slow,” .

    * Industrial production—output of factories, mines, and utilities—leveled off, .

    * October industrial production index barely exceeded its January 1995 value, .

    * Payroll employment in manufacturing decreased by an average of 16,500 jobs per month, according to the BLS’ payroll survey on total non-farm payrolls.

    * Business inventories rose relative to sales.

    * Production slowed due to excess inventory and soft sales figures, .

    * Real GDP was down to 2.0% down from 4.1% the previous year, .

    The big expansion happened when Clinton CUT the capital gains rate… ”

    http://predicthistunpredictpast.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-big-lie-clintons-tax-increases-did.html

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Mike R you talk off the small minority who does not vote, that number will keep increasing, or what will happen is like many have talked about people will vote on small issues.

    The generation after mine, year by year become increasingly less educated, less willing to learn, and are more immature than I can imagine. Young people now want to be like celebrities. Take young girls, dressing and acting like they want to be Kim Kardashian, is that what it has come to in this country, people’s role models are for example a woman who made a sextape and did a playboy shoot to become famous. It truly is sickening as more people vote for Obama because of his “cool” sense about him or his almost celebrity type stature, we are in for a long haul soon, when younger people come out to vote strictly on idiotic issues. James Carville was wrong, soon enough it wont be the economy anymore, stupid…

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Watch videos of Howard Stern and wearethechange.org, they interview young people voting and ask them on issues an such, none of them can barely name the three branches of government, just go watch the young hipsters go throw support for someone like Obama even though they have no clue why they truly are.

    (i.e. people voting for Bush 00,04 simply because he would be cool to have a brew with)

  • Mike R

    There’s plenty of ignorance on both sides. The entertainment and advertising industries are sucking out the brains of the American people, especially the young. Our schools are chaotic and teach little. Our manners and civility are withering. How do we fix it?

    I think I am more conservative than you in some ways. My father was an old fashioned conservative gentleman. He was a loyal Republican, and when Kennedy beat Nixon in ’60 he wasn’t happy about it. I made the mistake of calling President Kennedy a jerk, thinking it would please him. He let me know that I better not let him hear me call the President of the United states a jerk again. It was disrespectful and inappropriate. That’s real conservativism in my book.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    1. How we fix it is a big issue that needs to be addressed, to bad each party throws out nothing but talking points on this matter.
    2. There is ignorance for sure on both sides do not get my wrong, all I am saying is the way young people are and how they blindly throw support and vote for liberal candidates because some college professor likes him or because Obama is cool is a major flaw.
    3. JFK himself was not like the Democrats of today, many of his policies would seem conservative in this day an age.
    4. In some ways you might be, congrats on finally seeing the light 😉 lol

  • Bill Hedges

    Right on about JFK. He said to make rich pay more taxes you cut their income tax rate…

  • Bill Hedges

    “Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits… In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now.”

    JFK

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2003/08/the-historical-lessons-of-lower-tax-rates

  • Mike R

    O.S.

    1. These are deep social problems that can’t be fixed by politics.

    2. All young people don’t vote for frivolous reasons. I have a granddaughter who is working on an advanced degree in biochemistry. She voted for the President, and I assure you it was not because she sees him as a celebrity.

    3. Yes, and President Eisenhower’s policies were downright liberal compared to today’s Republican party.

    4. Speaking disrespectfully of elected officials you oppose is a part of the social degeneration you decry.

  • Bill Hedges

    Talking about JFK not Ike…

    buma talks about equal pay for women but pays women less in his administration. Such double standards makes him a B U M . Just one of many such examples.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Bill I love women who said they would vote for Obama because of equal pay because the democrats support women more. They may on the side of abortion,but pay give me a break!

    I can speak negatively of a President who under his administration added 24 million people on food stamps, 6 trillion to the national debt, 1 trillion per year in deficit spending, millions unemployed or underemployed, or not looking for work, someone who passed Obamacare which has premiums up across the board (btw I know doctors, they are not taking in any new medicare patients now), household incomes down 6%…and the list goes on.

    To me that gives me the right to be upset and speak negatively. One question for you, when Bush was in office you never bad mouthed him or spoke negatively about Bush?…

  • Mike R

    I thought many of his policies were bad and badly carried out. I thought he did some stupid things, and said so. I thought he catered to the finance banks and hydrocarbon industry and said so. I thought his presidency was a disaster and said so. I never said he sucked, or that he was a traitor, or called him a communist or fascist, or claimed he had a secret plan to destroy our freedoms. I never called him a disrespectful name. Nor have I dealt with Governor Romney in a disrespectful fashion. I guess my Dad was pretty convincing.

  • Bill Hedges

    Obama_Sucks

    I am a firm backer of Bush. Am realistic. He is not a god. Guy should have vetoed MORE is one. But what liberals blame him for is a sin. Recession WAS SO CAUSED by demos & I back my statement with plenty of indisputable FACTS & well documented.

    Our resident registered UN race patrol friend wrote “CHINK AND GOOK”. Love a guy that lives by example. Distracts from bumaworld. I don’t see any of the *** believers *** challenging the link I gave that WOMEN LOVING buma administration DOES TO pay their women EQUAL PAY. No the folks seating in the peanut gallery can not be heard disputing. You know they would love to. I have a big mouth throwing darts striking buma’s kisser.

    Natural, one might expect this to be a oversight and not a trend. OH NO. buma says BAD to give tax breaks to rich. What does he do but push through & sign tax cuts for rich and in same breathe says BAD. “Good Golly Miss Molly” Little Richard. Hope the RACE PATROL guardian doesn’t jump me for that.

    Then there is campaign against tax breaks for cooperate jets. You KNOW who made that possible ? Guess who ? He has BUM in his name.

    We have little children dying in the sewer with families going broke BECAUSE OF HAVING NO HEALTH PLAN (liberal hype for needing health care bill). Folks needing health care but bumcare takes 4+ years for full service. AND THE REASON WHY IS ? Ahhhhhhhhh !!!! Working bumacare will live up to the disaster CBO forewarns and IS NOT debt neutral without death committee who is now appointed with less threatening sounding name having no congressional check & balance feature. buma wanted this to come to term AFTER elected to get second term. ANOTHER freebie buying votes from poor putting America in the poor house like Greece. Greece sure IS helping their poor NOW.

    CBO says bumcare is not *** debt neutral **** even after robbing our paid for entitlements. TO THE CONTRARY will burst the already disintegrated piggy bank. The BUM who complained about bush’s 8 years of debt makes Bush look like the (before ghost) spend thrift Ebenezer Scrooge.

    The car unions buma baled out is full of first. Bailing out union retirement plan, health plan, & voiding tax for union Cadillac health plan coming up. BEST BOUGHT VOTES our money could pay for. A normal bankruptcy WOULD WORK but judge would not give stock to unions. Or void loans that are guaranteed with collateral (a unheard of action).

    How about Warren Buffet who wants his taxes raised ? He could hire cheaper CPA and let them overlook tax breaks. He could donate to IRS. He also could not allow government to help support upgrade of his railroad track. (by the way many of his companies owe back taxes going back years)

    We all know reason delayed on railway from Canada to the south was environmental. Longest study in American history IS NOT ENOUGH. IT IS NOT. I repeat IT IS NOT that new track would take business away from Warren Buffet.

    We all know buma is our environmental president. BP (known for Gulf oil spill) gave largest contribution to GUESS WHO ? Has BUM in his name. WHO waived regulations to BP drilling in Gulf. Well ok, maybe BP had super dubber safety record (ahhh NO. WORSE). So the BIG BANG happened. Countries volunteer to help with ships made for oil spills. buma jumps on that help ? Jumped saying NO. Need that UNION LABEL.

    BP, by the way, got a lot of our GREEN stimulus money. 80% went overseas supporting jobs there NOT HERE.

    GET THE IDEA ? Landreaux IS SO SILLY hiding in cave with this *** liberal saint *** elected to a second term. Only wish this was all. Future worse and I only heard from friends what buma said in recent speech.

    Wait, one more buma goody I must add. JOB creation is a super dubber priority of buma. He appointed CBO from G.E. to help create jobs. He did a fantastic job within GE. Imaging company & building a plane factory. IN CHINA. Someone forgot to tell CEO GE guy to create jobs in American.

    I wouldn’t worry about Mike R.. He reminds me of our previous Mike (they are NOT the same guy). First Mike promised to prove Bush tax cuts for rich did not perform as we expected. Shortly thereafter that Mike disappeared and Mike R appears & says racist from demo party went Republican. STILL WAITING for Mike R proof. Instead Mike R becomes the racist police who spits out racial slurs.

    Don’t worry about the hypocrite. I pointed out that Mike R twist words recently. Trying to build case he is HERE FOR. He is a crusader. Like a certain communist killer once in DC giving Hollywood a WHAT FOR. He will be asked have you no shame (like the revised version better than the original words) soon enough…

  • Bill Hedges

    Mike R

    Good characterization of buma in your last comment. Didn’t know you knew of buma’s support for big oil as Senator AS I AM AWARE.

    Like Obama_Sucks said maybe you are getting REAL.

  • Bill Hedges

    mAYBE YOU CAN GET SPECIFIC like you ask Landreaux to do today…

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Mike, I have never once called Obama a socialist, communist or anything like that, yes my username might be a bit immature, but I had it 4 years ago when just in college and have not felt the need to change it since. I also never said Obama was a traitor or had secret plans, all I have stated is what you did with Bush which is what you point out, so get off my back about my criticisms, people deserve criticisms when their job is leading the greatest country in the world, it helps keep them on the ball, to bad the only criticism this President is from Fox all the other MSM is getting tingles up their legs..

  • Mike R

    O.S.

    I’ve got no beef with criticism. That’s what it’s all about; I love it. The more the better. It’s just the name; as you say, it’s a bit immature. I’ll shut up about it and just hope you dump it.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Mike.
    You said “4. Speaking disrespectfully of elected officials you oppose is a part of the social degeneration you decry.”

    Explain how you have no beef with criticism yet earlier tried to label me as one who is helping to further this social degeneration

  • Bill Hedges

    Mike R writes “Speaking disrespectfully of elected officials you oppose is a part of the social degeneration you decry.”

    BULL. Is American tradtion. American RIGHT WE hold dear. Constitutionally protected.Freedon of speech.

    “Name-calling is not new in American politics. George Washington was called “the stepfather of his country” by enemies. Andrew Jackson’s wife was labeled an adultress and a bigamist. (Technically, she was; her first husband pretended to be dead. She only found out years later that it was not true.) Abraham Lincoln was called an “obscene gorilla.” Grover Cleveland was hooted at as the father of an illegitimate child. Franklin Roosevelt was called an amazing number of nasty names. And every candidate in recent times has been targeted”

    http://gotowncrier.com/2012/11/thoughts-as-a-nasty-election-season-draws-to-a-close/

    Americans don’t treat presidents as GOD or KING. “Name-calling” is a American tradition. bum NO different. “Obama_Sucks” as site name no different. Most of the time RACIST screaming is vote getter technique . Like saying for equal pay for women in public but not doing in buma’s administration. Helping vote down same sex marriage but election time FOR same sex marriage. For illegals in America but doing NOTHING. Reagan DID. ETC.. buma has a slush fund from stimulus bill to HAND OUT MONEY. OH NO not vote buying or used to gain campaign contributions !!! OH NO. buma IS STILL paying back BAD campaign contributions from first run as president. Repeated second term. NO learning curve.

    buma goes beyond THE NORM.

    I don’t care if Mike R stands up to name-calling on either side. I frankly think ones family should be left out of discussion here GENERAL SPEAKING. I don’t talk about bum’s kids LIKE liberals talked about Sarah Palin family. AS WELL as using ones family to guard against criticism is disgustingly low class. buma used bailing out car cmanies as VOTE GETTER with our money. I mentions reasons for saying that yesterday…

  • Mike R

    O.S.

    As I said, I was referring only to the name. I also said I’d drop it.

  • Bill Hedges

    Mike R talking from both sides of his mouth,why I think of him as a liberal :

    Mike R writes “Speaking disrespectfully of elected officials you oppose is a part of the social degeneration you decry.”

    You complained about what Obama_Sucks S A y s on site. NOT just:

    “I was referring only to the name.”

    MAYBE just this one comment IS TRUE. BUT BUMA WORD GAMES don’t play well on conservative sites. You have been jumping him all over this site.

  • Mike R

    O.S.

    In this discussion I have critized two things: the name you use, and certian statements of belief about black Americans.

    The first I’m more than willing to take off the table if it gets in the way. As for the second, I stand by my criticism.
    I’m not attacking you, and if I appear to have done so, I offer my apology. But I won’t back down from criticising the ideas because I think they are wrong.

    I hate political correctness. I hate that there are certain subjects that are not to be discussed or argued. I hate it when some liberal goes all ballistic on me when I criticise some aspect of black American culture. I don’t think we can afford any sacred cows.

    I’m not talking or thinking about liberalism or conservativism right now. I’m talking about two specific statements you made about black people: that they vote for Democrats because they get a handout or a check, and the majority of them dont work or look for work.

    I offered you a statistic from the department of labor that indicates that 87% of black people are employed (92% before the recession). I don’t see how either of your statements can be true if the majority of black people are working and providing for themselves. The statistic and the statements contradict one another. If the statistic is wrong, you should be able to prove it easily; if the statements are wrong you should be able to admit it just as easily.

    Someone here would like for you to think I’m your enemy. I’m not; I’m your opponent. Civil argument is a gentleman’s game, but there’s nothing gentle about it. Each wants to tear down the other’s idea and replace it with his own. You want me to believe something; you want to tear some of my ideas apart and replace them with your ideas. I want to do the same. I ask no quarter and intend to give none.

    If you don’t think my statistic falsifies your statement, please explain why not.

  • Bill Hedges

    You misrepresent Obama_Sucks statements as applying to ALL BLACKS (where is that quote located & quote exactly) or SHUT THE F*** UP. _____ YOU LOVE TO *** FEEL*** WHAT OBAMA_ SUCK SAYS _____. You have it in your head he is racist. THAT rattles my sense of fair play.

    As Michael Jackson sung is he “Black or White”. Maybe Obama_Sucks is Black. Would that change your “feelings” ? Maybe I am Black. Bob.

    You “feel” he said something offensive & he corrected you. Still you bolt your “feeling” to Obama_Sucks remarks. He explains but you hold tight to your “feeling”.

    If that make me your “enemy” I’m fine with that. Never expected you to prove your statement that racist left demo party & joined Republican (your “feeling”). I am a debunker of incorrect statements.

    Joe Biden made a statement that SOME “FELT” was racist. He was officially __ cleared __ (were you the official ?). Jimmy Carter & Bill Crosby branded THOSE AGAINST BUMCARE are racist. Is easier for me to believe Joe Biden is racist than all those who are against bumcare. By that’s just ME. Now when those two said “ALL” (said or implied) was that literarily “ALL” ? NO, I don’t think so. Both men are highly intelligent. Both are good men. In English we learn all, every, none, etc are hardly every true. We sometimes use “all” as an expression & not literal.

    Spree your racism with WHAT LITTLLE evidence you have against Obama_Sucks. Your racist remarks have been pointed out by Bob. Have you NO SHAME day will come if you stick around long enough. Mike reached his point (proving tax cuts for rich didn’t work) & is gone. Don’t see you changing.

    Obama_Sucks has explained to you but you have NO EARS…

  • Bill Hedges

    Part 2

    Just as you explained your 2 racist terms you used Obama_Sucks explaination is not TO YOUR LIKING but yours IS.

    HOW ABOUT we want Mid East NUKED ???

    DOES the word _hyp·o·crite _ come to mind ?

  • Bob

    Bill;

    Whoa there son………don’t go putting words in my mouth.

    What I was discussing with Mike was the lefts belief that we on the right sound throw anyone on the right making nonsenical statements under the bus or be held to answer to it.Secondly how he makes assumptions about the right but the right isn’t allowed to.

    NOWHERE DID I PROVE OR POINT OUT RACIST REMARKS MADE BY MIKE.

  • Bill Hedges

    Give me a minute & I will quote you…

  • Bill Hedges

    “I believe if you look at your statement “They suspect and rightly so that people who want to incinerate all Muslims and believe blacks to be parasites also don’t have much use for chinks and gooks.” Now the purpose of this exercise originally was that we on the right should disavow anyone making these statements or they will lump us together.The “US” would be anyone on the right WHO WON’T DISAVOW HIS STATEMENTS and you inferred the same by you saying “RIGHTLY SO”.

    “Change the Party to What? Bob 11/15 at 4:01 pm”

    “chinks and gooks” is a racist as the “n” word…

  • Bill Hedges

    “incinerate all Muslims ” is racist

  • Bill Hedges

    What I wrote was:

    Your racist remarks have been pointed out by Bob

  • Bill Hedges

    And you did…

  • Bob

    Bill:

    What Mike was referring to was insinuations that people might believe the Republican party would use.He wasn’t using it in the context of calling them racist names.

    “Gooks” was a term we used freely over in Nam which is why I thought he was there.

    You want a piece of Mike you go right ahead but leave me out of it.

  • Bill Hedges

    You pointed out. As I stated. See nothing done wrong by me.

    This isn’t era of Nam. He said he was in Gernmany NOT Nam. Is racist term. I write “n”. For effect I do not write out the word. He SAYS HE IS COnSCIOUS OF RACISM. YET HE USES RACIST TERMS.

    Mike R did not get these racist remarks, as written, from comments, but embellished by Mike R into racial depravity from within his own mind. Trying to burn a “R” upon Obama_Sucks forehead.

    I call that race bating and very _de·plor·a·ble _. As when TEA protested on Capital steps. We were accused of spitting and racial slurs. No police, camera, nor audio system there caught bad actions by Tea protesters…

  • Bill Hedges

    Only person I have ever seen use “chinks and gooks” on this site is Mike R…

  • Bill Hedges

    Part 3

    Mike R could easily have been more racially sensitive & more tactful in his words. Like me using “n”. He complains about Obama_Sucks use of words. Mike INSULTING WORDS are used ON PURPOSE… __ FOR NO GOOD REASON __. Could simple have been explained without.

  • Bill Hedges

    Part 4

    Bob GEEE _“Gooks” was a term we used freely over in Nam which is why I thought he was there”. Guess most Americans ARE RACIST THEN. Is good to find Racism in everything. What isn’t racist ? ONLY WAY TO CLEAN IT UP right Mike R is drill racism into everything ALL THE TIME (DRILL baby DRILL) ? Will take 200,000 years for Blacks to get over slavery in America. I am German and still feel full effect of Hitler. Nam must haunt Bob to this day. We all know the sufferings of Jews, Gypsy, and sickly. Is there any group FREE of racism ? Japanese in CA during WW 2. Poor illegals in America. (how could I express this WITHOUT using racist terms Bob ?). Bob must use to to make point racist are usually racist of other groups (there again I don’t use racist slurs_ Bad Bill).

    Then you have anti-racist.

    Lawyer obama with Acorn went to banks and said make bad home loans to those who can not pay or else we will scream your bank is racist (use of _ racist _ seems to follow buma DOESN’T IT). Sub-prime was invented to make the deals for the loans. Bank auditors CLOSED THEIR EYES to this change in banking practice with president Clinton wanting Jimmy Carter’s housing plan upgraded, & lawyer buma with Acorn. Bank CEO’s believed lawyer buma & Acorn. Board meeting and their homes had been marked by Acorn protesters. (buma tried to take census over using Acorn, Acorn in health care, and regular meeting with. BIG Acorn BANG ended that publicly. Acorn folks go to jail over election fraud).

    How ironic the person blamed for recession was Bush who tried to STOP THE RECESSION. How ironic the two people who had their hands the dirtiest in this recession has their names on reform of banking system. Barney Frank & Dobbs (Dodd-Frank bill does not address F/F).

    “Pelosi Caught In Major Lie- Says Bush Didn’t Warn Congress About Financial Crisis… Records Show He Warned Congress 17 Times in 2008 Alone”

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2010/05/pelosi-caught-in-major-lie-says-bush-didnt-warn-congress-about-financial-crisis-records-show-he-warned-congress-17-in-2008-alone/

    Video “Timeline shows Bush, McCain warning Dems of financial and housing crisis; meltdown”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM

    Video “Democrat Barney Frank admits his role in causing the recession”

    http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/democrat-barney-frank-admits-his-role-in-causing-the-recession/

    Here I go getting off racism (or did I ?) & talking politics. EXCUSE ME. Those darn demos were racist for blaming Bush for recession when lawyer buma, Acorn, and so many demo congress member were the BAD GUYS.

    Then ok to say McCain was not a native American and not healthy enough to be prez. We are racist for doubting buma (Now unlike McCain, buma took years to show birth certificate. Bait that racist theme).

    We live in EXCITING TIMES. Demos controlled Congress passes a bunch of bills which the polls hated including the crown jewel bumcare. Massive loss of seats beginning with Teddy’s seats. buma wins second term. GO figure. Must be anti-racist. Everything evolves around RACE CARD even voting against bumcare.

    Have learned from demos when felt threatened scream racist. BOB your racist. Mike R says racist left demos for Republican party with proof ?!? Those who voted against bumcare IS racist. God help us if buma had not gotten re-elected:

    “Full 2007 Video of Obama Emerges of Then-Senator Obama Claiming Federal Discrimination Against New Orleans”

    “On the eve of the first presidential debate, the conservative website The Daily Caller Tuesday circulated previously unreported clips of a five-year-old speech in which then-Senator Barack Obama praised his controversial former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, and suggested the federal government discriminated against the victims of Hurricane Katrina.”

    “I’ve got to give a special shout-out to my pastor. The guy who puts up with me. Counsels me. Listens to my wife complain about me. He’s a friend. And a great leader,” the president said of Wright in an address to the Hampton University Annual Ministers’ Conference in Hampton, Va., in June 2007 in video posted by The Daily Caller and first aired on Fox News.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/full-2007-video-of-obama-emerges-of-then-senator-obama-claiming-federal-discrimination-against-new-orleans/

    Is buma being racist in NE now ? Got to plug that thought !!! JUST LIKE BUSH. STILL is Bush’s fault…

  • O_S

    Mike,
    I see what you said about black employment but look at labor stats from 2001-2011 and explain that further please, considering, in the “pre-Obama” era (which is before November 2008), the PEAK unemployment rate for blacks was 11.4%. Now During Obama’s Presidency, employers have shed jobs in droves…so under Bush, technically, black unemployment reached 12.7.

    Now, look at the unemployment rate for blacks under Obama: the rate has never fallen below 13.5%, and has gone as high as 16.5%! Currently, the rate is 16.2%.

    The link shows you the picture of the black unemployment rate, clearly reaffirming my facts that employment was better under Bush for the african american community.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/blackunemploymentbushvo.jpg/

    I would just like to say all I have talked about within the african american community by me is what i have seen in the major cities around where I live. If these can serve as an example to other major cities (which I think they do), i.e. Philly, Cleveland, Cincy, L.A., Miami, then what I have said about people being takers TO ME quite possibly could be true.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Why was my comment “awaiting moderation” then never posted?

  • Bill Hedges

    You changed your name to O_S (right ?). That name has not been approved for auto post. Way to stop rant comments. Appears Landreaux has not checked for a few days. At top of page you should see 4 which is number of comments awaiting approval to be posted.

    Notice your Obama-Sucks comment is posted…

  • Bill Hedges

    America’s BIG BANG…

    Timing was AFTER presidential election before ALL BUMCARE & ALL TAXES INCREASES comes to term. WHY over 4 + year wait for heallth care for most of us INCLUDING ILLEGALS ? Was it the FLAWS as England & Canada’s health plans have & the BOTTOMLESS sinkhole cost associated ? BUMA HAS PROMISED ALL CAKE. No pain just ALL gain. Then buma & polosi PROMISED TO EXPLAIN. IF if if, buma gets his way, will ghost of our future see America grave tombstone beside Greece in poorhouse graveyard ? CBO makes such predictions. A State has already offered death pills over expensive cancer treatment in their obama like health plan. Another MA is deep in debt.

    IF if if buma gets his way will it be the end of Bush tax cuts for all. For rich-to-poor ? Demo’s PUSH class warfare with cutie sayings like Republicans ONLY CARE for rich. Help the rich dump on the poor. We didn’t pay for tax cuts for rich or war. (was tax breaks paid for for poor or do they NOT CARE about that ?) ALL THAT DEBT CAUSED BY TAX CUTS FOR RICH. Using REAL NUMBERS all the HORRIBLE predictions by demos were UNFOUNDED according to best real numbers you can get. Republican claims FOUND TO BE THE TRUTH by way of CBO:

    “Who Really Benefited From the Bush Tax Cuts? ”

    “In sum, the tax cuts enacted by Reagan and Bush have benefited the poor and middle class more than the wealthy. Their taxes have been cut more drastically than wealthy Americans, and many have been taken off the tax rolls altogether. In 2009, a majority of Americans paid no federal income tax. The poor and middle class also pay a far lower percentage of the total revenue pie now. Despite across the board tax cuts, revenues have remained essentially constant. Unfortunately, our spending has ballooned, and is only projected to increase with time”

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/3701/who-really-benefited-from-the-bush-tax-cuts

    IS GOING TO GET UGLY with the tax increases sucking the remaining life from this weak economy. IF if if buma plan is to turn us into another Europe, we will be another Greece…

  • Mike R

    I don’t remember discussing the unemployment rate during these two presidencies. To me there’s nothing surprising about a president entering office in the midst of a financial collapse, paralized credit markets, and an economy shedding 800,000 jobs a month presiding over a slow and stumbling recovery. The recession didn’t bottom out until the summer of ’09, and finance induced recessions are followed by slow recoveries. Of course the nation has suffered from high unemployment rates and a prostrate housing market. You might argue that the recovery would have been faster with other policies, but you can’t blame him for the catastrophe of 2007-08.

    Concerning your second point. If I grow up in a neighborhood with three red-headed people, and each of them is mean and shiftless, I might come to believe that red-headed people are generally mean and shiftless. If I get out into the world and start meeting and knowing redheads, I’ll find that they’re like everyone else—some mean and shiftless, some generous and noble, most somewhere in between. You just shouldn’t draw broad conclusions from small samples.

    Many years ago I worked on the blast furnaces of a steel mill in Chicago. The majority of the men I worked with were black. All kinds of men, from young fools destined to die on some South Side street to good men who worked for years at a hot, dirty backbreaking job to feed their families and help their children up to something better.

    The toughest guy on the furnaces was a black man named Ed. I was a hundred and fifty pound runt, but when Ed saw I had grit and was going to stick to the job he sort of took me under his wing: gave me advice, lended a hand when I was trying to pry or hoist something my scrawny body couldn’t handle.

    One night I heard sobbing out on the catwalk next to the blower’s shanty. I stood at the corner and listened. It was Ed talking with a friend about his childhood, and about being taken to see the body of a beloved uncle hanging from a tree, lynched by a white mob.

    I know this sounds like fiction, but it happened. I never told Ed what I’d heard. Ed had moved up from Alabama cotton fields to the Chicago ghetto, gotten a good job in the mill and started raising a family. He didn’t live and raise his family in the ghetto because he wanted to be there, but because they weren’t wanted anywhere else. He was a good man.

    I don’t want people like Ed to be thought of as lazy or dependent. When I see a statement like “they” do this, or “the majority of them don’t do that”, I think of all the black people I’ve known, from drug dealers to college professors, and they look pretty much like the white people I’ve known, most of them pretty decent people.

    I really don’t want to beat on this subject anymore. I just think you should broaden your sample a little. I understand your statements were based on local observations. Broad conclusions drawn from limited observation and experience are almost always wrong.

    Enough my friend. I feel Christmas coming, and I wish you and yours a merry one.

  • Bill Hedges

    Too bad demos did not heed Bush’s warnings ABOUT RECESSION. DEMOS TOO BUSY BUYING VOTES:

    “Pelosi Caught In Major Lie- Says Bush Didn’t Warn Congress About Financial Crisis… Records Show He Warned Congress 17 Times in 2008 Alone”

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2010/05/pelosi-caught-in-major-lie-says-bush-didnt-warn-congress-about-financial-crisis-records-show-he-warned-congress-17-in-2008-alone/

    Lawyer buma & Acorn were just part of cause of recession…

  • Bill Hedges

    Demos know how to BUY VOTES & receive campaign contributions…

    “Where did stimulus money really go?”

    “For all the concern about Democrats helping the poor, they were merely in it to help themselves. The Stimulus was simply a massive partisan wealth transfer — the largest single transfer in American history.

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/23/where-did-stimulus-money-really-go/#ixzz2EBRn2pzb”