Cloward and Pivin for Conservatives?

You may be familiar with Cloward & Pivin.  In a nutshell, their political strategies called for community level organizing aimed at overwhelming governmental and social systems to bring about radical social and political change by way of creating and sustaining social and financial crisis.  They were the strategic darlings of the radical left in America for quite some time.  

The Cloward and Pivin strategies were applied with varying degrees of success to welfare, housing and voting rights campaigns.

Conservatives, by nature, aren’t of a mind to purposefully overwhelm systems or create crisis as a transitional vehicle or political strategy.  Perhaps, however, the time has come to adopt exactly the Cloward & Pivin mindset.

How would a conservative go about such an effort?  There is no conservative equivalent of ACORN, the unions are obviously not in the conservative picture,  and the GOP…., not exactly a bastion of convervatism lately either.  However, it’s clear that conservative issues are not going to get a whole lot of attention from the current White House or Congress.  Maybe, just maybe, we need a Cloward & Pivin strategy for conservatives.

Just for giggles, try this on for size and fit.  Every conservative in the country immediately changes their withholding status to the maximum number of dependants allowable.  That simply means less withholding tax and more cash in your pocket as long as you stay on the maximum number of dependants.  (Don’t spend the extra money you’ll need it later.) 

The resultant impact on Federal and State cash flow would be immediate and dramatic.  A political and a financial crisis all rolled into one! An overloading of the system by way of a legal option!  Tax collections would plummet, state governments would cry foul and aim their anger at a tone deaf, free spending Washington; what to do?  The problem for the politicos is vexing as it’s perfectly legal to change your dependant status and “manage” the amount of withholding taken from your pay check. 

The message delivery is simple, get off the current path, stop the deficit spending, reduce the budget, shrink the scope of government intervention and support a strong dollar policy or we stay right where we are, all 50 million of us claiming 8 dependants each and taking care of the cash ourselves. 

Ah, just another exercise in Astroturf they will say.  Get off it you’ll have to pay your taxes eventually yea, not so fast, Homer! 

Stage two:  on March 15th we all file for extensions on our 2010 taxes.  50 million requests for extensions!  Still not getting the message? 

Stage three: we wait for the IRS to catch up, send us those nasty letters and then we all ask for tax court hearings, yup, all 50 million of us.  Under normal circumstances it can take 8 months to schedule a tax court hearing.  50 million tax court submissions might just, wait for it …….overload the system.  It could, literally, be years before the tax court even processed the requests let alone schedule the hearings.  Spoken from experience! Can you hear me now?

Cloward & Pivin were, for a time at least, highly successful and their strategies are applied to this day by organizations such as ACORN, Rainbow Push Coalition, Labor Unions and others.  Perhaps we should attempt to emulate that success in a different direction!

We have a proud tradition of civil disobedience, we have a political and legal class that veers Constitutional interpretation farther and farther from the belief system that created it.  We also have power!  We may have forgotten that we have that power but it is there,  just waiting for organizing influences and ideas.

  • JD

    I think you all should do it. It would be cool to see it happen. I just wish I was a tax lawyer so I could collect on all you peeps.

    I am still interested to see who the Tea party is going to support as far as to represent you in washington because I have a feeling it is going to the same kind of conservatives that racked up 7 trillion dollars on the deficit.

  • Bill Hedges

    JD said:

    “I have a feeling it is going to the same kind of conservatives that racked up 7 trillion dollars on the deficit.”

    JD you must be madder than ALL GETOUT knowing obama will create more debt than ALL the Presidents in American History ! Seeing your attitude towards Bush’s inflated debt number you seem to give. Unless you prove my numbers wrong. Even obama’s numbers on Bush’s debt is not as high as yours.

    But I need to take a look at your link and make a study of the source.

    You don’t mind providing a link do you JD ? Without link $7 trillion is a fictitious number.

    I want to see how that money was “racked up” as you say. I for one thing would like to known if Bush’s TARP money paid back was deducted from Bush’s debt. Or spent by obama and added to obama’s debt or left on Bush‘s debt. Some other questions I want to discover from your link as well.

    HERE IS A REAL GOOD LINK. SHOULD REALLY READ THE WHOLE THING.

    “Obama Budget Raises Taxes and Doubles the National Debt”
    Published on March 9, 2010 by Brian Riedl

    “Misdiagnosing the Cause of the Deficit”

    “President Obama’s misplaced budget priorities may be the result of his Administration’s misdiagnosis of the cause of the deficit. During his State of the Union speech in January, the President asserted that “by the time I took office, we had a one-year deficit of over $1 trillion and projected deficits of $8 trillion over the next decade. Most of this was the result of not paying for two wars, two tax cuts, and an expensive prescription drug program.”[6] That is simply not true. The various policies mentioned by President Obama were implemented in the early 2000s. Yet even with all those policies in place, the 2007 budget deficit stood at only $161 billion. The trillion-dollar deficit did not begin until 2009 (driven by financial bailouts, stimulus, and declining revenues) as the recession hit its trough.”

    “The wars, tax cuts, and prescription drug program mentioned by the President certainly could not be responsible for most of the trillion-dollar deficits projected for the next decade, given that most war spending will be phased out by then, and the tax cuts and Medicare benefit are expected to cost a combined 2.4 percent of GDP by 2020–even as the baseline budget deficit rises past 8 percent of GDP. (See Table 2.)[7] That even ignores whatever portion of the lost tax cut revenues is replenished by economic growth.”

    “By contrast, the rising costs of Social Security, Medicare (beyond just the drug benefit), Medicaid, and net interest are responsible for nearly 5 percent in additional deficits as a share of GDP by 2020. Yet the President failed to mention this spending as driving long-term budget deficits.”

    “There is also some hypocrisy at work in that President Obama does not want to “pay for” more than a fraction of these initiatives, either. Just like President George W. Bush, President Obama has proposed continued funding of the Medicare drug entitlement as well as the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan without any offsets. He has also proposed extending more than three-quarters of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts without offsets. Thus, President Obama has opened himself up to the same criticism that he heaped on President Bush.”

    NOW JD HERE IS A IMPORTANT PARAGRAPH. BUSH DEBT AND OBAM’S DEBT MENTIONED. BUSH DEBT HERE IS NUMBER I KEEP SEEING NOT YOUR INFLATED NUMBER.

    TAKE SPECIAL NOTE OF OBAMA’S DEBT:

    “Doubling the Debt “

    “President Obama has harshly criticized the $3.3 trillion in budget deficits accumulated in eight years under President Bush.[8] Yet President Obama is now proposing to borrow $7.6 trillion during what would be his own eight years in the White House. (See Chart 2.) In fact, President Obama would add more to the national debt than every other President in American history from George Washington through George W. Bush combined.”

    http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/03/Obama-Budget-Raises-Taxes-and-Doubles-the-National-Debt

    At bottom you can click on “Show references in this report” and you can check out facts to your satisfaction JD.

    Looking forward to your link JD.

    I am using Heritage source. Even obama used that source to show his health care plan was good. Well let’s say obama used Heritage research as source.

    If good enough for obama, should be good enough for JD and me. Right JD ?

  • D.D.Mao

    Even though I preach that the Republicans/Conservatives need to understand that POLITICS is a 24/7 job 365 days a year this would never be accepted as a viable counter protest.We unlike the Liberal left believe in THE RULE OF LAW and throwing the nation into ANARCHY TO PROVE YOUR POINT IS CHILDISH AND IRRESPONSIBLE.We also realize it would probably have financial repercussions that would flop-flop around the world.NO !….After the last 22 years it is time we once again had some adult supervision in our Executive Office.

    AS WE CONSERVATIVES ARE FOND OF SAYING “IDEAS HAVE CONSEQUENCES”

  • “We conservatives” sound a pompous.

  • “sounds a bit pompous”

  • landreaux

    Gentlemen,

    You did read the line “just for giggles”?

    I don’t expect anyone to get on this tax denial train. That was not the point. The point is that if the tax idea is a bad idea for a conservative approach to “system overload” should we not know, understand and reject the tactics of the left that resulted in the massive financial, economic and social crisis we now face? I know that there was a hole in the logic, just trying to make a point.

  • D.D.Mao

    Landreaux…..Sounds like a response from the left is needed here since “WE CONSERVATIVES” already understand about the tactics employed by the left and the results of those tactics.

  • D.D.Mao

    Kendale……”POMPOUS” IS THINKING YOU KNOW WHAT IS BETTER FOR THE PEOPLE YOU REPRESENT THAN THEY DO AND VIOLATING YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL OATH TO PASS LEGISLATION WHICH NOT ONLY VIOLATES THAT OATH BUT IS FOR YOUR OWN BENIFIT.

  • landreaux

    DD,

    Without sounding pompous, I really don’t think people are well versed in the tactics, intentions and attitudes on the left. They especially don’t know the history of the left for what it is. Speaking for myself I’ve put a lot of time into researching those things. I’m fortunate I frequently have the time that most folks just don’t have. We’re Americans, we tend to believe that good intentions prevail, even when they don’t. We tend to be optimistic and not ascribe bad intentions. These things are strengths but I’ve learned over the years that someone’s greatest strength is usually the source of their greatess weakness as well.

  • Bill Hedges

    ”POMPOUS” is passing much needed health reform but most changes doesn’t go into effect until after your second Presidential election. If plan saves money, let’s start saving NOW.

    Of Course Congress is covered under different plan. They should be DEMANDING IT.

    CBO has gotten past preliminary report. Not good…

    “POMPOUS” is not re-running for office and saying it is not because they voted for health bill.

    America needs ‘harry carry’ tradition…

  • JD

    lol. I love how you guys blame the left for the “financial, economic, and social crisis”. I guess, you guys take all the credit for the good and blame the rest for the bad. Classic.

    You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, however, this does just reflect the GOP’s constant ability not to take never own up to any of thier failures. There was a post a little while ago where someone was telling me the left is “anti-american” because they believe in saying they are sorry to other nations…

    Again, admiting your failures doesn’t make you a weaker person. It makes you an honest one. honesty is something the GOP has lacked for many years now.

  • Bill Hedges

    JD said:

    “I love how you guys blame the left for the “financial, economic, and social crisis”. I guess, you guys take all the credit for the good and blame the rest for the bad. Classic”

    How JD.

    Wall Street fall had many of its causes in Bill Clinton’s sub-prime bad home loan policy. More than glad to provide links. From 2001 to 17 times in 2008 Bush warned F/F could cause recession. WELL, Bush was right. And legisltion to halt this through regulation fails by all Democrat vote. That is a fact Jack… Just ask for links. No problem. I’ve posted them many times here. Live with it JD.

    JD claims Bush debt was over twice what obama assigns to Bush. How factual wrong. Classic JD. No link given then or now. Classic.

    I provide evidence that obama DOES what obama blamed Bush for. Classic.

    I see no take all credit and give all blame to obama. JD classic mistake.

    Rest of JD comment I have no interest. Except to say Nate and DDMao have things they are real unhappy about in Bush administration. Even I have some. But JD ignores that. Classic.

  • D.D.Mao

    AMEN TO THAT Landreaux

    AMEN TO THAT Bill

  • JD

    Bill, you post only reaffirmed my point. Taking credit for the good and ignoring the bad. The truth is for every link you post for Clinton being at fault there is a link for bush at fault.

    The difference is the ability to say where they both were at fault. Again, this is where the GOP needs to grow.

  • “There was a post a little while ago where someone was telling me the left is “anti-american” because they believe in saying they are sorry to other nations… ” JD

    I find that funny as well. Again on Hannity last night, Sean was having a fit over Obama bowing his head during a handshake. He replayed the clip and posted the picture during multiple discussions having nothing to do with the clip or picture. When the Great American Panel stated that Bush and others have done the same thing, Sean reverted to changing the subject and calling Obama a bad person for something different, when the panel shot that down, he switched to another topic rather than defend the initial.

    I understand people don’t like Obama, I can handle that, but you’ve got to give up on irrelevant subjects such as cultural greetings, clothing, apologies, birth certificates, ect.

    Glen Beck dedicated an entire hour to researching why Obama is a socialist. Great, Obama favors socialism, great, don’t vote for him. I think we’ve beat that topic up enough that every American has heard it, move on. You don’t like a mans policies, don’t vote for congress members who will back those policies.

    The News is far to repetitive, it gets so old that you’re better off just watching the News once a week in hopes the subjects will change by the following Monday. That or just use the internet so you can easily click the X when you see something repeated.

    DD Mao, I agree with your example of being pompous, but yes both sides show the same attributes. Both sides THINK they know what is best for the country.

  • Bill Hedges

    JD

    OK JD. Prove something !!!

  • D.D.Mao

    TO OUR LEFT LEANING BRETHREN……I find it IRONIC than rather than defend your stance you have a habit of pointing out where WE ARE AT FAULT IN ORDER TO DIVERT THE CONVERSATION.You try to take the MORAL HIGH ROAD AND POINT OUT THAT BOTH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE AT FAULT in your opinion.Unfortunatly as Bill pointed out you have AMNESIA WHEN IT COMES TO ADMITTING ANY DEMOCRATIC GUILT DURING THE COURSE OF OUR CONVERSATIONS AS WELL AS NOT SUPPLING ANY PROOF.WE ON THE RIGHT DO NOT REQUIRE NOR SOLICIT THE COUNCIL OF WHERE THE PERIMETERS OF TRUE CONSERVATISM FALLS BETWEEN FROM TRAVELERS OF THE OPPOSITE PATH.NOR DO WE ADHERE TO THE COUNTER ARGUEMENT OF “BOTH SIDES DO IT” AS A VIABLE DEFENSE ARGUEMENT.

  • D.D.Mao

    AGAIN TO OUR LEFT LEANING BRETHEN…..USING THE ARGUEMENT “THAT BOTH SIDES DO IT…OR ARE AT FAULT” didn’t work with our parents when we were kids trying to justify an action taken and IT DON’T HOLD WATER NOW.Unfortunatly MANY OF OUR GENERATION DIDN’T LEARN TO BE ADULTS AND THE BABYBOOMER GENERATION IS IN DENIAL WHEN IT COMES TO ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY.”GROW” YOU SAY? LOL ! AGAIN THIS IS ALMOST COMICAL COMING FROM THE LIBERAL LEFT WHO BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD SUPPLY ALL YOUR NEEDS.

  • Bill Hedges

    “Timeline shows Bush, McCain warning Dems of financial and housing crisis; meltdown “

    VIDEO…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM

    Be big man on campus and disprove this video JD. For a change prove one thing. Liberal rationale is so nothing.

    Discredit video. Cold hard facts.

    DDMao so eloquently states the case. You’re looking for anything to answer back that diverts attention from issue at hand. As always.

    I must differ with him as far as “MORAL HIGH ROAD”. JD hates the constant evidence that destroys obama and shows him as being the liar he is. The incompetent.

    Clinton’s deep seated desire to give the poor a home at any cost involving sub-prime with Acorn help caused our Democrat recession. Barney Frank said all was well. That was the major contributing factor.

    Bush’s housing attempt was based in sound banking. Helping those with good jobs that could make monthly payments but lacked down payments.

    Not sub-prime and other bad banking practices like not checking work record, etc. Loans on the brink of failure when made. Up turn in interest rates and house of cards failed. Actions Clinton pushed upon banks.

    http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/democrats-caused-the-recession-and-republicans-tried-to-stop-it/

    Try checking out links.

    Rationalize that JD !!!

  • JD

    DDM – “You try to take the MORAL HIGH ROAD AND POINT OUT THAT BOTH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE AT FAULT in your opinion.Unfortunatly as Bill pointed out you have AMNESIA WHEN IT COMES TO ADMITTING ANY DEMOCRATIC GUILT DURING THE COURSE OF OUR CONVERSATIONS AS WELL AS NOT SUPPLING ANY PROOF.”

    DDM, try and break down what you just wrote.

    1. “You try to take the MORAL HIGH ROAD” – shouldn’t this be what we all strive for? Moral high grounds? Since when did it become popular to take the low road? So I accept your compliment.

    2. “POINT OUT THAT BOTH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE AT FAULT in your opinion” – when talking about failures shouldn’t the conversation include the failures of one’s self? What good is it to talk about another if both rain drops play a role in the flood?

    3. “you have AMNESIA WHEN IT COMES TO ADMITTING ANY DEMOCRATIC GUILT” – didn’t i just say Dems are guilty? Please see #2 in above statement…

    4. “AS WELL AS NOT SUPPLING ANY PROOF.” Well, debating is called debating because it is a mixture of facts, feelings, and fighting but to show you links on how bush was responsable…

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2009/03/05/populist_rage

    http://vodpod.com/watch/1595098-who-is-responsible-meltdown-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-wall-street-bill-clinton-george-bush

    Again, my point is that there is much to blame but more to feel guilty about if we only looked into the mirror.

  • D.D.Mao

    JD……..Your response is very lawyer like….and your selective wording in SPINNING YOUR ARGUEMENTS around ALMOST PERSUASIVE.That is until we realize the left isn’t tired of “THE REPETITIVE NEWS” BUT THE HOLLOW REPETITIVE DEFENSE THEY MUST GIVE.

    A COMPLIMENT?….YOU MUST HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD MY POST SO I’LL HAVE TO PUT IT IN TERMS YOU UNDERSTAND. By saying BOTH ARE RESPONSIBILE YOU ARE DIVERTING GUILT FROM YOUR UNDEFENDABLE STANCE SUCH AS A CHILD WOULD. Yes we all should take the “MORAL HIGH ROAD” but ACTUALLY TAKING IT AND JUST “TRYING TO LOOK” LIKE YOU ARE TAKING IT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.You know very similiar to what THE DEMOCRATS DO WHEN THEY SAY “THIS IS FOR THE CHILDREN” or passing health care “FOR THE 45 MILLION UNINSURED” when their ulterior motive is POWER AND RE-ELECTION for themselves.

    It’s ironic that you NEVER GET SPECIFIC ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS FAULTS DURING THE COURSE OF OUR CONVERSATIONS BUT ONLY LUMP IT TOGETHER WITH REPUBLICANS WHEN SAYING “BOTH ARE AT FAULT”.I think that mirror you mentioned should be used BY THE LEFT ALSO SO THAT THEY MAY SEE THEIR FAULTS AND NOT BE A “MIRROR,MIRROR ON THE WALL WHO’S THE FAIREST OF THEM ALL” AS SEEMS TO BE THE WONT OF THE LEFT ON THIS SITE. THUS YOUR CRONIC AMNESIA IN REGARD TO ADMITTING SPECIFIC FAULTS!

    I’ll let Bill answer your links conserning President Bush seeing that he has ALL THE LINKS AT HIS FINGERTIPS and UNLIKE THE LEFT I ADMIT I HAD ISSUES WITH A MEMBER OF THE PARTY.

  • Bill Hedges

    Jd
    You have misquoted me to DDMao. I know he noticed it. I am not going to get drawn off course here. Will let it go.

    Your first link is a mess.

    Your second link makes my day. Tie it to my video. I expect is one in the same. Democrats stopped regulation. Republicans for. It throws you interpretation into the deep blue sea.

    My other link proves Clinton caused SUB-PRIME. Bread and butter for RECESSION.

    Beginning in 2001 and 17 times in 2008 Bush warned of F/F which caused Wall Street meltdown. How ? F/F sold the bad bank notes to Wall Street and the World. As pointed out in your second link.

    Here is list through the years of Bush’s warnings:

    http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2008/09/bush-called-for-reform-of-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-17-times-in-2008-alone-dems-ignored-warnings/

    There is no shame for Bush when he looks in mirror. Clinton yes.

    If you think there is any points in your first link against Bush, quote it, bring it in the light. I don’t see it.

    I did read your links. Did you read mine ?

    If you think your second link has any proof against Bush, quote it, and bring it in the light. It affirms Bush want for regulation.

    Evidence is against Democrats and for Republicans trying to stop recession. Quote any that isn’t. It takes bad interpretation to conclude what you surmise.

    The number of warnings by Bush makes it clear. ALL DEMOCRAT VOTE AGAINST REGULATIONS SEALED OUR RECESSION DOOM.

    DDMao, JD twisting is caculated to twist the truth. Let him quote the quotes that prove Republicans were at fault. Let’s hold our breathe…

  • D.D.Mao

    “Again,my point is that there is much to blame but more to feel guilty about if we only looked into the mirror.”…JD (post of 13th of April @6:41 PM)

    Seeing that GUILT IS ONE OF THE LIBERAL LEFTS MOST POWERFUL TOOLS OF PERSUASION….SO TELL US JD JUST WHAT DOES THE DEMOCRATS FEEL GUILTY ABOUT THAT YOU SEEM TO HAVE NEGLECTED TELLING US?

  • Bill Hedges

    Add to that, what did Republicans do wrong.

    Sticking to this suject. Not heading in another direction..

    From links used here.

  • “TO OUR LEFT LEANING BRETHREN……I find it IRONIC than rather than defend your stance you have a habit of pointing out where WE ARE AT FAULT IN ORDER TO DIVERT THE CONVERSATION.” DD

    That is 100% what Hannity did in the episode I was referring to. It was SO FUNNY that even my girlfriend had to watch and laugh.

    I DO NOT DO THAT. Once I give my stance there is nothing more to be said unless you question me about my stance and I will answer.

    I WONT EVEN ARGUE WITH YOU on the fact that republican are infallible and democrats are never right about anything, because it makes me no never mind. I font even vote for “only one side” I don’t vote party, I vote issue or I DON’T vote. So that argument is stupid. But it is true, both sides are jaded, otherwise you’re argument truly is that republicans are infallible.

    “THIS IS ALMOST COMICAL COMING FROM THE LIBERAL LEFT WHO BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD SUPPLY ALL YOUR NEEDS. ” DDMAO

    As long as you don’t group me, I’m cool.

    “That is until we realize the left isn’t tired of “THE REPETITIVE NEWS” BUT THE HOLLOW REPETITIVE DEFENSE THEY MUST GIVE. ” DD Mao

    Perhaps the left isn’t, but Kendale is, and that is why he said he is. I don’t need to defend my opinion, it is what it is, you don’t have to drink my Koolaid, drink yer own, but, “My milkshake brings are the boys/girls to the yard, and dang right, its better that your.”

    DD Mao, so you really think Obama passed health care reform in order to be re elected? Come on, really? I think he took on an issue he believed in, likely since Hillary got laughed at. It’s not an easy thing to take on an issue that has already been shot down in the past. I am not going to pretend to know that as fact, but that is what I believe, and what you believe is your belief, so by all means, be a conspiracy theorist, it’s the “popular road” if not the “moral high road.” Then again I believe the majority of politicians are bandwagon riders to election and re-election. Just look how vertually every single republican rallies behind the “Hate Obama Campaign” it is such a powerful coat tail to ride and thus they all ride it in order to look good in the eyes of the bandwagon “haters.” It really sickening. I wonder how many people hate Obama because it’s simply popular to do. AND DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT ATTEMPTING TO SAY THAT AMERICAN PEOPLE DO NOT HATE WHEN ITS POPULAR. I SEE IT EVERYDAY IN MY FACE THAT IGNORANT GHETTO PUKES JUMPING ON THE OBAMA TRAIN BECAUSE HE IS BLACK AND OTHER BLACKS DO IT. I ALSO LISTEN TO EVERYONE AT WORK, mind you i work a different hospital every time i go to work, THE NUrSES THERE JUMP ON THE HATE OBAMA TRAIN BECAUSE ITS POPULAR. But as soon as you take one to the side and chat with them, their tune changes so quickly. That seems to be the nature of people, they follow trends because they are just that, trendy.

    I am happy that I am now seeing it become a NEW TREND to hold the stance of “I don’t need to the news to tell me how to think, I can think on my own.” Now that’s a trend I can promote.

    My comments don’t tend to be fighting for or against democrats or republicans, they are how “Kendale feels” about a subject. You decide politics not fight for your favorite team. But to each their own, life is the game we play, play the way you want because their are no rules.

  • JD,

    “And they saying Iron like a Lion in Zion” – Bob Marley

  • Bill Hedges

    Apr 13th, 2010 at 6:41 pm by JD is such a load of crap not pertaining to the subject matter. What else can we expect DDMao. He will never allow himself to be proven wrong and he does not learn. His beliefs are too fragile.

    Staying on topic and winning debate we get a ‘A’. Off topic and not even reasonable justification for topic a ‘F’ for JD. We were not discussing inner self. Although some how JD feels it is related to cause of recession. MIND BOGGLING.

  • D.D.Mao

    Kendale……Your RAMBLING AND AT TIMES INCOHERENT POST starts off on the same worn trail as JD is fond of…..saying Republicans (Hannity)do it.For someone who says they DON’T VOTE ALONG PARTY LINES YOU SURE ARE TESTY ABOUT DRAWING LINES WHEN IT COMES TO POLICY.Nate,Bill and myself said over the years there were things the Republicans did that we didn’t agree with.Spending,nation building Harriet Meirs and in my case waterboading were among these. HOWEVER WE HAVE YET TO HEAR ANYTHING SPECIFIC FROM EITHER OF YOU EXCEPT THE STANDARD MASS INDICTMENT.I’m not even going to attempt to reason with your paranoid President Obama theory.

    “I AM HAPPY THAT I AM SEEING A NEW TREND…..I DON’T NEED THE NEWS TO TELL ME HOW TO THINK I CAN THINK ON MY OWN.”

    LMAO ! YEAH but that statement is coming from the TEA PARTY MOVEMENT NOT THE LEFT.Another quote of yours is “I DON’T NEED TO DEFEND MY OPINION”? Then why do you bother coming on this site is all you are going to do is state something and not back it up with fact? It makes you look like you are just looking for an arguement…. or JD’s “PARASITIC PARROT”.

  • Bill Hedges

    Anyone who believes a certain way politically that can not stand on a soap box and defend their own position stance stands for nothing. Hodgepodge politics is meaningless Mumbo Jumbo.. Except maybe to a pompous ass whose political views comes from a cracker jack box. Who cherishes the penny ante plastic prize inside more than the candy. What value is such political views ? Especially to the owner of such a mirage.

    It is not that Kendale needs to defend his political opinion but that he has proven inability to do so. When writing comments in a political forum it would be nice to able to articulate ones reasoning for ones political stand. Hostility and insults can only take one so far. Few conservatives will just accept another’s belief as truth because one says so.

    Reasons prevail not inclination.

  • JD

    Kendale,

    Bill and DDM have crossed the threshold in life where they believe the same idea’s of the past work in a world that has completely changed during thier lifetime.

    They use history as a crutch and life at the expense of others as a defense.

    “I would spread the cloths under your feet:
    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.” – W.B. Yeats

  • Bill Hedges

    Glad to see JD provided proof Bushed caused recession and not Bill Clinton.

    JD has ability to say focused.

  • Bill Hedges

    JD certainly gave credence to my Apr 14th, 2010 at 11:42 am statement.

  • “LMAO ! YEAH but that statement is coming from the TEA PARTY MOVEMENT NOT THE LEFT” DD Mao

    So because the tea party said it, I should be against it? Durrrr, have you ready what I said, obviously not.

    DD Mao, you need me to list things for you in order to free myself from the bondage you and bill have given JD and I?

    1. I am against sub prime mortgage. I have stated before while talking with bill, if you can’t afford to buy a house, don’t buy one.

    2. I was not for the 1st stimulus package and am not for another one. I was not for the stimulus checks Bush sent out either. I agree that lowering taxes is stimulus enough.

    3. I am against being the primary source of troops in any war. If we MUST have war, we MUST get the nations with appointees to the UN to join along proportionately or NOT be at war. Why? Well wars are not only expensive monetarily but it cost our families lives. Other nations must be involved.

    4. I am AGAINST signing into law any legislation that the president or congress has not READ from A to B. That’s just stupid. Why would anyone vote on a piece of legislation without reading it. I get Obama’s reasoning for rushing legislation, so that the idiots of the NEWS don’t have enough time to demonize the legislation beyond FACTs but yet and still, if you want to rush the legislation, rush to reading it, not just voting and signing it.

    5. I am against NOT publicly denouncing organization, or at least acts of organizations such as ACORN and others. I will have to admit ACORN, in theory is an excellent way to stimulate grass roots supporters but ONLY if they do it the right way. ACORN gave thousands of people in my county jobs and mobilized them to spread the word about various political issues. The first time I saw this was during the 2004 election. So it can work for a good cause. But as everyone loves to point out, they have gone about things the wrong way many times. I have not seen or heard Obama denounce their acts, which I am against. Just as JD wanted you guys to denounce the acts of violence taken against congress people for signing the Health Care legislation, I am capable of denouncing ACORN’s wrong doing. This is not because of any political ties I have to anyone, but because what is wrong is wrong and it should be spoken about.

    If you need me to list more to sooth over your ridiculous accusations and ego’s just let me know.

  • “I DON’T NEED TO DEFEND MY OPINION”? Then why do you bother coming on this site is all you are going to do is state something and not back it up with fact? It makes you look like you are just looking for an argument…. or JD’s “PARASITIC PARROT”.” – DD Mao

    What you believe is what you believe. You may believe that little old ladies who cant walk, feed themselves, or hold their bowels or bladder should have multiple surgeries for various ailments. Do you need to back that up with facts? No, it’s just how you feel DD Mao. I feel like those people should be assisted with hospice and make them comfortable while they die. What facts need to be discussed on such topics? That is what I meant. Not every argument has a right and wrong, some are simply opinion. I’ve already had this discussion with Bill numerous times.

  • P.S.

    JD and I know nothing of each other, we have not declared ourselves team mates of any sort, nor do we general comment to or about each other. So for you to call me his Parrot is extremely stupid. If his and my beliefs seem to be similar at times its because many people share similar beliefs, duh.

  • For bill,

    For me to allow links and news sound bites to dictate my belief if also stupid. I know what backing up statements with facts and bibliographies is, as I am in college and I have yet to get a poor grade on a paper. But if I allow myself to be a puppet then what good am I? What I believe in and stand for is not dictated by others statements or news articles, why can’t you seem to get that. If every thing you say, feel, believe, and have faith in needs a link to an internet site then you are not a man, you are a puppet. If you have a problem with something that I say and it legitimately needs reference then by all means ask me to give you a reference. I do not plagiarize as you say JD does.

    So, I’ll be waiting for you to show me something that I have said that needs references, when you show me, I will give you references.

  • JD

    Such anger from the dark side. I mean from the republican’s on this site. I think it is time for Bill and DDM to take a deap breathe and slow the ticker down a bit.

    The last thing i would want is a heart attack and medicare to deny your sergury.

  • JD,

    LOL But I would not denounce medicare for such a denial. I mean once a person hits a certain age we should put them on the death panel and decide if this patient is past its prime, or obsolete. Why spend tax dollars on old people? Let them die! They no longer pay enough taxes anyway right? Take em out back like Old Yellow. (Again, a joke)

    What is NOT a joke is me paying my tax dollars while you believe people should earn enough money to pay out of pocket. Don’t use medicare if you are against it.

  • JD

    Isn’t that the truth. I wish they would put thier money where thier mouth is and deny Medicare coverage if you believe it is so bad. Teach society a lesson.

  • D.D.Mao

    Kendale……NOW THAT WASN’T SO HARD WAS IT?

    There is much we agree upon from what you say…… and some we don’t.

    I ALSO DON’T MIND PUBLICLY DENOUNCEING ANY ORGANIZATION JUST AS I DON’T MIND PERSONALLY APOLIGIZING.HOWEVER…..THERE HAS TO BE PROOF THAT THERE WAS A WRONG.IN ACORNS CASE IT WAS SHOWN WHILE IN THE TEA PARTIES THERE WAS NOT.

    On your policy of other nations need to send troops along with us or we don’t go to war is NAIVE AND DANGEROUS.You are putting our safety in the hands of the UNITED NATIONS thugs and rogue nations who want to see us dead.If WE ALONE are attacked WOULD YOU AS A FOREIGN LEADER SEND YOUR PEOPLE TO PROTECT US IF IT DIDN’T CONERN YOU? WHY SHOULD WE PUT OUR TROOPS AT THE COMMAND OF FOREIGNERS WHEN THEY PLEDGED TO PROTECT ONLY AMERICA.FINALLY THE UNITED NATIONS IS A WORTHLESS PIECE OF CRAP.

    Now I never said you had to supply links or proof for EVERYTHING YOU WROTE BUT I WOULD AT LEAST LIKE TO KNOW YOUR REASONING BEHIND YOUR CONCLUSIONS. ALSO YOUR REASONING BEHIND THINGS ARE CONFUSING AND CONTRADICTORY AT TIMES.On the 13th of April @11:45AM you wrote “I understand people don’t like Obama…..but you’ve got to give up on irrelevant subjects such as culture,greetings,clothing,apologies and birth certificates.” IN OTHER WORDS GET OVER IT! Then on the 14th of April @ 5:44 you wrote “What you believe is what you believe.” IN OTHER WORDS NO PROOF IS NECESSARY. WHICH IS IT? PLEASE CLARIFY!

    HAVE YOU NOTICED HOW YOUR OTHER SIGNIFICANT HALF IS LEAVING YOU OUT TO DRY? SOME PEOPLE ON THIS SITE FEEL THAT THE TERM “BOBSY TWINS” FIT YOU TWO WHILE I FEEL MY “PARASITIC PARROT” FITS.

  • DD Mao,

    “I ALSO DON’T MIND PUBLICLY DENOUNCEING ANY ORGANIZATION JUST AS I DON’T MIND PERSONALLY APOLIGIZING.HOWEVER…..THERE HAS TO BE PROOF THAT THERE WAS A WRONG.IN ACORNS CASE IT WAS SHOWN WHILE IN THE TEA PARTIES THERE WAS NOT.”

    I did not say the tea party did anything. Yet I did post an article where a person was in fact charge with the crime of threatening a congress woman. I did not say the man had anything to do with a Tea Party.

    “On your policy of other nations need to send troops along with us or we don’t go to war is NAIVE AND DANGEROUS.” I did not say we should not act, I said we should push harder for other people to join. I used the UN simply as a grounds for us approaching other nations and a reason why they should assist in our cause. I did not say the UN is a great thing.

    I did not say get over not being on the Obama Bandwagon, I simply meant attack his policy, not his culture. You have a right to not like his culture and if you want to rant about it, it is your right, but I will call the personal attacks stupid nonetheless. Especially when people use NEWS media to do so, I think it’s a waste of time. If you believe his policies are wrong, then by all means fight for your own. Yet don’t attack his policy by attacking his culture, attacking it by stating why it is wrong and why yours is right. However, that form of attack is simply my opinion, people are free to attack people however they see fit, but I will call it stupid if that is my opinion. I know you’re not a stupid person, I am not calling you stupid, so don’t take my comment the wrong way.

    How is JD leaving me out to dry? What tie does he have to me? If you think I co-sign JD in anyway it is not true. I state my beliefs and he states his. For you to group us is stupid, but that is your opinion. I don’t group you and bill because the two of you are your own man. If I did group you it would not be right, but to each their own. There were other that attempted to group people, I call them Skinheads. But I guess Jews and Niggers being grouped is or is not the same as me and JD. I am Kendale, JD is JD. Call it how your want.

  • Bill Hedges

    I’m going to say I use more links than everyone put together Kendale. I doubt that I am wrong even though I have not counted.

    I am sure you are a straight ‘A’ student from reading your comments. Intelligence shines through. Anyhow that is a personal matter and not into that.

    I proved JD plagiarized one time. Of course he was unrepentant. Is not “as I say”. Ask Nate I reported it to him at the time. I ALWAYS FELT NATE WAS WRONG NOT SANCTIONING JD. But not my site.

    I will ask for link when need arises.
    …………………………………………………………………………

    JD if reason is anger then yes I was quite angry.

    I guess being forced to pay into medicare we should not use medicare. I suppose Kendale same twisted logic applies to S/S. I would love to be in one of the few private S/S programs in this Country. They are in black and pay more in benefits. No government stealing their trust fund.

    America has learned its lesson. And it is not Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling. It is the sky falling in on those that voted for this health plan.

    I am forecasting a change in make-up of Congress. Less Democrats. I will miss Harry Reid and Chris Dodds. I expect but not certain that Nancy Pelosi will lose her Speaker position. That is not spectacular guess work just poll numbers and not running again.

    Enjoyed seeing the activity around the bee hive this afternoon. Struck a nerve.

    JD claims $7 trillion debt by Bush and obama claimed 3.3. I suppose I must believe obama is the liar, right JD. Even if JD supplied no link to check the facts. Even after asking several times for link.

  • D.D.Mao

    PARROTHEAD……In regard to your statement on the UNITED NATIONS I refer you to your post of 14th of April @5:41PM. In it you state:”We must get nations with appointees to the United Nations to join along proportionatly OR NOT BE AT WAR.” SOUNDS PRETTY FIRM COMMITMENT TO THE “Utopia Notion” TO ME.

    Hmmmm I ONLY HEAR ONE VOICE RESPONDING….YOURS! YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER HALF IS USING YOU WHISPERING SNIDE REMARKS BUT LETTING YOU STAND AND TAKE THE BLOWS ALONE WHILE HE COMES OUT MARKLESS AND AS ALWAYS IN HIS CASE VAGUE IN HIS PRINCPLES.

  • Bill,

    Yes you do use links, and I wont knock you for that. If JD plagiarized, shame on him, if you called him on it and he did not correct it, I’m sorry.

    As far as less democrats being in congress at the end of the year, great, it’s nice to see the titter totter.

    I apologize to anyone who takes offense to my use of “Jews and Niggers” as I didn’t mean it in a way to attack Jewish people or anyone else. I admit that perhaps on this site it may be inappropriate use of language, but that’s just how I talk, again, my apologies.

  • D.D.Mao

    Kendale…….You think my post are getting nasty son? IF YOU KEEP THE TONE OF YOUR PASSED POST UP WITH YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER YOU HAVN’T SEEN SQUAT.

  • D.D.Mao,

    I don’t find anything wrong with my post. I didn’t say your posts were getting nasty. You assume a lot lately. By all means express yourself, it is not threat to me. You coupling me with JD shows a flaw in you.

  • Bill Hedges

    Kendale I admire your ability to say you are wrong. We all make errors. I certainly do. It is my style when I have time to use links. Obviously there are differing views in links. I like those that meet my links with theirs.

    I agree you are not JD. I agree with DDMao most of time, but we do have disagreements. Nothing wrong with that. I am most pro Bush person here. No surprise…

    I rarely attempt to leave on a positive note. Is not me. I am a cut and dry person. But this once I made that effect. Is because of your recent attitude.

    I must do my taxes.

  • D.D.Mao

    Kendale…….No assumption.When someone uses the RACE CARD CALLING ME A SKINHEAD OR WISHES ME TO A DEATH PANEL(ONLY A JOKE OF COURSE)IT SHOWS A FLAW IN YOU.

  • I did not call you a skinhead, and I didn’t not wish death on you. I NEVER use the race card, it’s weak. I simply used a strong point in order to get you to understand the wrong in you insisting on grouping me with JD just as Bill tried to group me. Don’t group me. I stand on my own two feet in life. The death panel thing was a joke as I stated that the comment was a joke.

    I do agree that if government insurance is so bad then those who don’t approve of it should not use it. Take it for what it is.

  • JD

    Bill and DDM… why don’t you love me? Did you two have rough childhoods?

  • D.D.Mao

    KENDALE……IF comparing me to Skinheads who are bias against “Jews and the Niggers”(your 7:09PM post)isn’t playing the race card I don’t know what is.Apologizing for the use of “Jews and Niggers” while using the race card is weak. And don’t B.S. me that you don’t group people together because you have been grouping Republicans together during this whole thread as not giving a damn about the old and aged.But if I remember right Nate complained about one of you useing it about 2 weeks ago also.There it was denied.In regard to you wishing me on the death panels (your 6:20 PM post) I guess YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING AND GET AWAY WITH IT IF YOU ONLY SAY “IT WAS A JOKE”.I’LL HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT TRUMPS AN APOLOGY ACCORDING TO THE LIBERAL LEFT.

  • DD Mao,

    You’re delusional, I have already expressed myself on this matter. If you don’t get it, that’s your business. I don’t need to use the race card because we were not discussing race. You don’t want to be grouped with other people who group people then don’t group me. I am of two races, so i don’t give a crap out pulling a race card. My mother is white my father is black, so what need do I have of the race card. I am pulling the “DONT FREAKING GROUP ME DAMMIT” card.

    If I have ever grouped republicans I was simply making a statement that you and Bill relate yourself to republicans and I am referring to the two of you alone, not republicans in general. And when I grouped the two of you it was only when the two of you were saying the same thing to me and the same exact time. or I was laughing at the way one of you tried to place the word republican on a higher ground than the word democrat. I don’t group people. You do.

    I used the term death panel because people arguing against Health Reform used it, so I was throwing it back in the face of those who used it in jest, if you didn’t get that then perhaps we have a cultural difference here. Perhaps when you jest you do it in a manner that your culture and upbringing taught you and I do it in mine. I was born in 1981, so perhaps we don’t understand each other due to the age gap.

    “I guess YOU CAN SAY ANYTHING AND GET AWAY WITH IT IF YOU ONLY SAY “IT WAS A JOKE”.I’LL HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT TRUMPS AN APOLOGY ACCORDING TO THE LIBERAL LEFT. ” DDMao

    again you talk about me being the liberal left.

    If you don’t understand me, or you don’t like me for what I say, I don’t care, as you said, US LIBERAL LEFT PEOPLE SAY “GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    You speak your mind and I will speak mine.

  • Muahahahaha

    I’ll pray for you man. It will be ok.

  • D.D.Mao

    PARROTHEAD……THEN SO BE IT !

    P.S……DOES HAVING JD’s HAND SHOVED IN THE BACK OF YOUR SHIRT ALL THE TIME HURT?

  • JD

    DDM, does having your face up Nate’s rear smell? Don’t be offended…just curious? Seems like it would.

  • JD

    If Kendale is a parrot then I guess you are kind of a butt pirate.

    Do we really want to go to this level? I say, DDM, you start acting like the grown up you are and have a civil conversation with us. Is it that hard for you?

  • JD,

    Apparently when you call a man on his foul he reverts to childishness. It always seems to strike a nerve for, “those people.” LoL

  • Bill Hedges

    What happened is very clear. Everything is in writing and can be verified. JD decided he would prove Bush caused recession. He could not as comments will show.

    In fact JD says Bush caused $7 trillion in debt with no link. I gave link where obama said Bush caused $3.3 trillion. Of course I asked JD at least twice to give link so I could check out his link. No response from JD. Totally ignored giving link.

    As normal to get away from shame of losing argument JD comes out insulting. Kendale involved. Since I have played that game before I dropped out.

    I must say the boys did reframe from cursing. That was a recent new twist. Bringing in Nate’s name was new. Kendale was less involved than usual. Attack was on DDMao instead of me this time. Needed to do taxes anyhow.

    So if you want to get into a serious discussion, especially with JD, expect him to do a few of these things when he is losing the battle.

    1. Run away and come back on another article.

    2. Make up data.

    3. Plagiarize (very rare).

    4. Divert to another topic.

    5. Start the mind games to hide fact he lost discussion.

  • Bill,

    LoL, thats a pretty close analysis. I noticed nobody took a real shot at the topic of medicare denying a greater percentage of claims that private insurance.

    You will have to add Bill, that DD Mao also strayed from the conversion and asked me to list things I don’t agree with democrats on. I’m not sure how else we got to that conversation.

    Then I got called names. Apparently I called DD a racist or something. Or i played the race card, I forget, lol. I think the health care issues usually go a lot better.

  • Bill Hedges

    Your first paragraph is irrelevant to the argument.

    As far as your second paragraph you should check the transcript if you want to know. I don’t think it came out of the blue sky without reason.

    You used the “J & N” words. Don’t think Death panel helped whoever first brought that up. “J&N” was posted while I was writing my compliment comment to you. I doubt I would have posted that comment had I seen it first.

    In the light of day and after reading your latest comment I’ll stand by my previous statement.

    I think I handed out sage advice.

  • JD

    Bill, I keep my discussions on target and they only move when dealing with you and DDM. Mostly because it seems you guys like to play like you are in a circus act. So I naturally give you a flaming hoop to jump through or a small car to fit in.

    i guess I just assumed it was how you guys wanted to act. I mean, I don’t talk to my 6 year old kid using big words do I? No, you talk to their level. however, when my child grows up then the level of communication grows as well. See the ball is in their court.

  • Bill Hedges

    The subject was proving Bush caused recession. You said Bush caused $7 trillion debt while obama said $3.3. Asked at least 2 times for your link.

    I gave my evidence that Clinton not Bush caused sub prime recession. Also quote material I believe supported that. Still waiting for your reply.

    Anyhow, let’s be adults. I gave list evidence that Bushed warned many times of F/F problems and disaster awaiting us. Regulation failed by all Democrat vote.

    So quote the quotes and provide the links. On this subject only. No insults and no jokes. No changing subject. High school debate rules.

  • JD

    Bill, if you would just re-read what was posted you would realize I said for every link i could post a link in return. Just because you have a link doesn’t mean it was fact hense the reason why i said i can post link for link. Because you were not having a real discussion but were just trying to pawn off links.

    Secondly, I still stand by my math. See this link.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

    Total under Both Bushes and Reagan they increased the debt by 7.43 trillion dollars. Again, fact and verified with simple math.

    When Bush left office the debt clock was at 10,626,877,048,913.

    current Debt is at 12.8 trillion so Obama has put in 2.2 trillion in deficit under his watch currently in two years.

    So that combined with Clinton is 3.83 in deficit total. So again. Republicans have doubled what Dems have done if you think deficit stems directly from presidents. However, we all know there are other factors, which was my point to begin with.

  • Bill Hedges

    I believe I said the same about links. To simple discard use of links is not what is done in real world. Certainly not in discussion groups. Even obama used conservative think tank Heritage Rearch.

    Frankly long list of Bush warnings you can not dispute. Unless of course they are lies. Video is nearly indisputable. Video of Congress. I checked your link but did not find $7 trillion. There are many sources I could miss. But I feel safe that obama would not bottom dollar Bush’s debt. That seems a very safe statement. Also checking online I could find no $7 trillion. Area of 3.3 yes.

    Here is breakdown of debt caused by each Presidents:

    http://belowthebeltway.com/2010/01/21/obamas-first-year-increase-in-national-debt-already-record-setting/

    These numbers should clear up confusion.

    Clinton did push sub-prime home loans and have seen many links on that and none that denies it.

  • Bill Hedges

    JD

    You forgot a small matter in your math. I will use your numbers.

    “3.83 in deficit total for obama and Clinton.”

    “Total under Both Bushes and Reagan they increased the debt by 7.43 trillion dollars.”

    On your facts, Democrats look GREAT. Until:

    Democrats did 3.83 in 9 years.

    Republicans did 7.43 in 20 years.

    Not much difference JD.

    Got to compare apples to apples.

    Yes there are other factors, but bad home loans using sub prime to get unqualified home buyers loans was pushed by Clinton. He pushed banks to make the bad loans.

    Bush pushed for regulations and warned from time he entered office.

  • JD

    Does everthing slip over your head bill?

    My point was exactly that. Republicans are as guilty as Dems. So when you cast your stones don’t forget to have some thrown your way too.

    Again, you seem to take credit for good and pass off all bad as Dems fault. it is Classic and expected. That is all I am saying. However, you probably won’t grasp that which is why it is hard to carry on this conversation.

  • Bill Hedges

    JD

    No your point was:

    “Republicans have doubled what Dems have done if you think deficit stems directly from presidents.”

    If I pro-rated debt Democrats would be more in debt in comparrison to Republican.

    With new evidence you now say:

    “Republicans are as guilty as Dems.” Not twice as you said before..

    You did not like the turn of events of comparing years. Now you are going back to insulting.

    You didn’t last long.

  • Bill Hedges

    So it was not Republican debt that caused recession because war debt, drug program, and tax cuts included in debt. Republican debt was better than Democrat.

    Was Bill Clinton’s sub-prime bad loans. Without that Bush debt would be even lower.

  • JD

    Blah, blah, blah… now you see why I call you a circus clown.

    Notice my quote from my above responses… this first one is my very early answers back to you.

    JD – “The difference is the ability to say where they both were at fault. Again, this is where the GOP needs to grow.”

    Not to mention DDM even admits I said Dems and Republicans are at fault.

    DDM – “POINT OUT THAT BOTH THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE AT FAULT in your opinion”

    More quotes just to drive home the point.

    JD – “I love how you guys blame the left for the “financial, economic, and social crisis”. I guess, you guys take all the credit for the good and blame the rest for the bad.”

    JD – “Bill, you post only reaffirmed my point. Taking credit for the good and ignoring the bad. The truth is for every link you post for Clinton being at fault there is a link for bush at fault.”

    JD – “when talking about failures shouldn’t the conversation include the failures of one’s self? What good is it to talk about another if both rain drops play a role in the flood?”

    Don’t come at me with your little mickey mouse games, Bill. Either contribute to the conversation or stay out of it but don’t get mad at me because I try and communicate at your level. If you don’t like it then try to elevate your response and read my posts.

    Again, you are absolutely looney if you think “Republican debt was better than Democrat”. The sad part is because you can’t look past your parties failings you will never be able to fix them. Still, they have a blind puppet on thier side.

    JD – “Bill and DDM have crossed the threshold in life where they believe the same idea’s of the past work in a world that has completely changed during thier lifetime.

    They use history as a crutch and life at the expense of others as a defense”

  • Bill Hedges

    “Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton Share Blame for Subprime Mortgage Recession, Government Overshoot “

    “The current Wall Street quakes have their origins in the Jimmy Carter administration of the late 1970s, and the “affirmative action” banking laws Carter instigated. Bill Clinton only made things worse by adding more muscle to affirmative action banking enforcement.”

    “To hear today’s Democrats, you’d think all this started in the last couple years. But the crisis began much earlier. The Carter-era Community Reinvestment Act forced banks to lend to uncreditworthy borrowers, mostly in minority areas.”

    “Age-old standards of banking prudence got thrown out the window. In their place came harsh new regulations requiring banks not only to lend to uncreditworthy borrowers, but to do so on the basis of race.”

    “These well-intended rules were supercharged in the early 1990s by President Clinton. Despite warnings from GOP members of Congress in 1992, Clinton pushed extensive changes to the rules requiring lenders to make questionable loans.”

    “Lenders who refused would find themselves castigated publicly as racists. As noted this week in an IBD editorial, no fewer than four federal bank regulators scrutinized financial firms’ books to make sure they were in compliance.”

    “Failure to comply meant your bank might not be allowed to expand lending, add new branches or merge with other companies. Banks were given a so-called “CRA rating” that graded how diverse their lending portfolio was.”

    “We have to use every means at our disposal to end discrimination and to end it as quickly as possible,” Clinton’s comptroller of the currency, Eugene Ludwig, told the Senate Banking Committee in 1993.”

    “Meanwhile, Congress gave Fannie and Freddie the go-ahead to finance it all by buying loans from banks, then repackaging and securitizing them for resale on the open market.”

    “With those changes, the subprime market took off. From a mere $35 billion in loans in 1994, it soared to $1 trillion by 2008. _IBD”

    “But the fact is, President Bush in 2003 tried desperately to stop Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from metastasizing into the problem they have since become.”

    http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2008/09/jimmy-carter-bill-clinton-share-blame.html

  • Bill Hedges

    Global Recession due to US Subprime Crisis

    “The US Subprime Crisis has not only resulted in US economy recession but its ripple effects has touched the countries like UK, Spain, Japan and Singapore as well. Emerging economies like China and India are also affected by the negative influence of the US Subprime Market ?Crisis. At present it seems that this subprime crisis of US is going to generate a global recession by affecting the major countries of the world.”

    http://www.economywatch.com/us-subprime/global-recession.html

  • All because home loans were given to those who can not afford the homes in the United States, the whole world goes into a recession? Where did that money go? Though those houses were forclosed on, the banks got the houses, and the people who sold the houses got the money from the bank via a home loan. So basically banks bought up a bunch of houses and turn around and sell them.

    Explain to me bill how bad home loans caused the whole world to go into a recession.

  • Bill Hedges

    THE ABOVE 2 LINKS SHOULD HAVE HELPED… Maybe my simplfied explanation will help…

    You must know I am not going to write a book.But here goes explanation in allotted time I give it. By the way, I have hard time getting JD just to provide a link. Gee, Here I do all this !!!

    Ok, in olden days you saved and came up with 20% down payment. If you had a good steady job for many years, small ratio of debt to pay including house and car payment, etc. You bought the house.

    Jimmy Cater and Bill Clinton who accelerated the process wanted was to help poorer people buy homes. Large down payment dropped and work background requirements lowered, etc. All to allow more people ability to buy.
    Well that is all well and good until it causes this. We all have scares. Especially the poor home buyer who lost his home. Credit ruined. Clinton did not favor to the poor.

    So Dmocrat Congress blames Wall Street and we are to ignore sub prime came from Clinton
    ………………………………………………
    “Timeline shows Bush, McCain warning Dems of financial and housing crisis” video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM
    ………………………………………………
    To really allow more to buy monthly payments for home had to be lowered. So Bill came up with sub-prime. Problem here is when interest rates go up, these loan payments go up. These already stretched home buyers got into problem quickly.

    You may remember the second loans people were getting. Financial it got ugly as people tried to save their homes.

    Even bigger deal people were people getting homes they could not afford. Thanks Clinton. Banks were under pressure from Acorn and Clinton to meet Clinton requirements of home ownership to the poorer.

    All these loans were bundled in mixed quality bag and sold by F/F and others to Wall Street and the World. When I heard that I stopped trading stock. Was bad finical policy. Now Wall Street and the World owned all these mortgages papers.

    I believe it was 2008 over a $trillion was involved in this year along in these type loans. This began under Carter. Clinton expanded it. That is A WHOLE LOT OF HOME LOAN MONEY. These programs go on long after The President who conceived it and got passed leaves office.

    Remember Bush began warning year he was elected. And continued. Democrats stopped regulation all by themselves to alleviate this coming recession.
    ………………………………………………
    “Bush Called For Reform of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac 17 Times in 2008 Alone… Dems Ignored Warnings”

    http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2008/09/bush-called-for-reform-of-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-17-times-in-2008-alone-dems-ignored-warnings/
    …………………………………………………………
    When the market crashed all this home paper was not worth what the banks paid for it.

    You may not know there was a tremendous electronic run on the banks that if not stopped would have been world economic disaster unheard of before.
    ………………………………………………

    “How The World Almost Came To An End At 2PM On September 18”

    http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-world-almost-came-to-end-at-2pm-on.html
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………….

    Anyhow, Home owners had made so small down payments, minimum payments paid due to loans longer than traditional 20 years and sub-prime interest rates gone up, they owed more than their homes were worth. Add to that values going down because of all the homes up for sale. Banks can not sell foreclosed homes for money owed to them on the houses.

    By the way foreclosures are still very, very bad. Obama’s attempts to keep people in their homes could easily repeat the problem we just went through in the future.

    So in a nut shell that’s the answer. Would appreciate it if you read and watched the video.

  • I will later, I worked last night, so I need rest before I watch the video.

    Sounds to me that you could have just said, banks can’t sell houses that went into foreclosure in order to make back the money they lost by giving the home loans. But I will watch the video when I wake up.

  • Bill Hedges

    I answered the question you posed.

  • JD

    Bill, if only homes cost what they did when you first started buying houses.

    If only the price per gallon of gas was what it was back when you bought your first home.

    If only health care premiums were what they were when you first bought a house.

    If only the price per gallon of milk was what it was when you firt bought a house.

    If only we the average wage reflected the same inflation of all the stated above. i know there are problems where people didn’t do what they should but there is a much larger picture.

    So continue to look at the spec and I’ll look at the entire painting.

  • Bill Hedges

    If only what you said had anything to do with the price of rice in China.

  • JD

    Again, the simple fact that you just said that means you have no clue about anything other than what you want to see or what is affecting you.

    Good luck in life, bill. I hope one day you will learn about the disease and not just focus on symptoms.

  • Bill Hedges

    Is it true Democrat debt of Clinton and obama is half of both Bushes and Reagan.

    I just understand the big picture of that.

    You so smart…

  • JD

    Thanks Bill. It feels good to hear those words out of your mouth.