What Did The Army Know?

 A declassified Department of Defense briefing paper entitled “Islamic Investigation Issues” authored by William Gawthrop of SAIC and dated November 21st, 2003 makes the following statements.  The report is easily accessed with a simple search.   

 “Employment by a non-Muslim government of a Muslim investigator to investigate other Muslims places the investigator in the position of violating the tenets of his beliefs and may force his recourse to deception, lying and/or the giving of misleading impressions.”

 “A recurring and heavily emphasized theme in the Koran, the Hadiths and in Islamic Law is the prohibition against close association with Non-Muslims. There are grave legal and religious repercussions for the Muslim allying himself with Non-Muslims against Muslims.” 

 “Forsaking fellow Muslims in favor of Non-Muslims is an act of un-belief, nearly equating with apostasy having three profound consequences for the offending Muslim: loss of spiritual salvation, social isolation, and exposure to the risk of a death sentence.”

 “A Muslim has a positive duty to protect his fellow Muslims from unbelievers and he is permitted to lie in their defense.”

 One might reasonably assume that the Department of Defense would be capable of and indeed motivated, to extend and internalize  the tenets and conclusions of this briefing to other areas.  While the briefing specifically focused on investigative issues it also dealt in general with the teachings of Islam and the jeopardy inherent in Muslims serving a non-Muslim government.

 The Army and indeed many aspects of government departments involved in defense and intelligence might consider rereading the report absent concerns related to political correctness.  When political correctness takes lives as it’s “payment in kind” it’s time to reconsider.

  • JD

    Just a thought but this Koran scripture was mentioned in the “Body of Lies” movie.

    However, to lie to another man’s face is something all nations do and quite often no matter the religion. It is called false intelligence and it is the reason why the CIA was formed.

    Islam is not the first religion that allowed it’s followers to lie, cheat, and steal for the betterment of their religion. Not to mention Middle eastern countries are not the first to do that as well.

  • Landreaux

    JD,

    The issue is not what “other” religions have done or not done in a historical context. It’s a question of what is dogma within the religion. In Islam these issues are enconced as dogma, required matters of faith and behavior. I believe you will have difficulty in finding a similar “dogma” in other religions where, typically, the exact opposite is the case. There is a significant difference in Counter Intelligence efforts that you reference and taking an oath that you have no intention of honoring.

    Landreaux

  • JD

    I see what you are saying with the issue of “the same Dogma” in other religions, however, Christianity is littered with instances where it was OK to lie, torture, and kill in the name of god. Hence the Spanish inquisition and the Crusades all justified using scriptures from the bible.

    I don’t think I understood your last statement of, “Taking and oath that you have no intention of honoring”. Are you talking about an Muslim taking an oath as a US citizen when he\she doesn’t really mean it?

    Perhaps I am reading this post wrong. Can you explain it to my like as if I were a 10 year old? lol. Seriously, I think I may be reading this post wrong… so don’t get too offended with what I am saying.

  • Bill Hedges

    I don’t get the discussion. The briefing paper was done for a specific reason. Other religions was not involved.

    Study was done because obviously they were having conflicting data from Muslims investigators investigating Muslims..

    You can speculate about other religions all you want but has nothing to do with conclusions reached by this briefing paper.

    This paper is very narrow in scope to fit the needs of the Department of Defense.
    …..

    JD said “I don’t think I understood your last statement of, “Taking and oath that you have no intention of honoring”. Are you talking about an Muslim taking an oath as a US citizen when heshe doesn’t really mean it? ”

    This is paper on military not citizenship. Oath to Military.

  • Bill Hedges

    You can not have any United Sates military investigator who doctors reports to make Muslims look good.

    As stated:

    “A Muslim has a positive duty to protect his fellow Muslims from unbelievers and he is permitted to lie in their defense.”

    What sort of reliable intelligence would we have for our Armed Forces with false reports.

  • Landreaux

    Bill,

    I suggest you search for and take a look at the full report. Obviously, I took excerpts, there is a broad range of issues addressed and significant footnoting of sources related to the Koran. The point is that regardless of the dicipline within the government the points in the report apply. I would draw your attention to the case of Officer Mohammed Weiss Rasool in Fairfax County as another example of the point made in the report.

    The point is that in most of the cases I am familiar with there were red flags ignored in the interest of political correctness. In that case you cannot rely on reliable intelligence or performance, to answer you’re last point.

  • Bill Hedges

    Landreaux

    With the on again & off again investigation by Administration, I imagine all investigators are squeamish over ‘political correctness’ which can change so easily.

    Of course the recent murders on post is prime example. Leaked information is damning. Passed from post to post. Ignoring the problem. Basically giving him higher grade then thinking… Not me, let the next guy handle this guy and booting him off to another base.

    Investigators and many upper brass will pay dearly for what happened if news coming out is true. Being in a precarious situation of being damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

    The Liberal jury can sit back and judge. With perfect 20/20 hindsight. If they had done the investigation or made the decision, they could have done no better in this atmosphere of ‘political correction’.

    Watch the guillotine chop off their heads with smirking glee as in old glory days in France. While cuddling the poor murderer who was defamed because of religious persecution. Who can not see the writing on the wall ???

    Many promising careers will be cut short. Blotches on record on many leading to dismissals and/or stagnant rank. Results will be breach of security. For few will stick their necks out anymore. Especially with current President.

    Bush took the blame for faulty report that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Although poison gas caused 1,000’s to be killed, but there were no nuclear found as told to him. Bush accepted blame. obama never will!!!

    At Little Sandia, as a 55G-20, I learned a little about this stuff. I had top secret clearance. I almost went into investigation. I choice the easier route of nuclear missile maintenance. A glorified electrician, but non-war position.

    I am sure the Armed forces will counsel the solders that this murdering Doctor saw. Can you imagine his outlook on those returning men he ‘helped’.

    Is a sad state of affairs this article discusses. Without doubt vast majority of Muslims are good people.

    Just as in WWII, American Japanese solders fought in Germany. Our German Americans fought against Japanese as a general rule. Would it not be best that Muslims be investigated by non-Muslims as outline by briefing paper.

  • Landreaux

    Bill,

    Churchill had it right: “The malace of the wicked, is reinforced by the weakness of the virtuous”!

  • Bill Hedges

    Yes. But did he imagine today’s bleeding hearts. I suppose he had them in his day. At least he could place them on the front lines.

    Modern Australia got it right. To new Country Muslim population:

    Adapt or pack !!!

  • JD,

    Give me a new testament qoute where it states that it is ok to lie, toture, or kill in the name of God. None of the Christian crusades are justified in the New testament. Those involved in Christian Crusades are those who believe they are doing it to spread Christianity to bring about salvation for non-believers. The Bible, I believe the last 10 or so veres of the book of Mathew say to

    Go out into the world
    Preach about the goodness of God
    Baptize non believers
    teach them about the word of God

    Ect…..it says nothing about killing or torturing or lying at all.

    The Koran does indeed talk about “not putting nonbelievers before other Muslims.” I will also make a stab at stating that we all know that there are many parables and metaphors in the old/new testament and Koran.

    There’s one in the New Testament about sowing seeds. Where it states planting seeds on rocks will not give you crops or what not, planting them in thorns will destroy plants, but planting them in fertile soil will give you good crops. We all know that is not talking about planting literal seeds. It’s simply talking about spreading the word of God to various types of people and how successful it will be.

    Many people talk about the Koran justifying the killing of non believers and I challenge anyone to give me a qoute where it says that it is justified to commit murder in the literal sense. The Koran attempts to defer Muslims from choosing Christians as friends over other Muslims because of things such as the crusades. It even states that Christians do not follow their own religious texts and that is why Islam was created, to bring people back to the old teachers of the law, the torah, the old testament.

    As I have been crucified about giving links, I challenge the writer of this article and JD to both give me bible qoutes with book, chapter, and verses to justify their statements.

    My example of the seed sowing is Mark Chapter 4 Where Jesus gives the parable then explains what the parable means in literal sense. It is nice that Jesus explained his parables but no other person in religious texts explain their parables, they simply give them and do not explain which is why so many take thigs out of context. Jesus also states that he does not want people to understand his parables, only his disciples. Which is a bit worthless, why preach and not explain?

  • Bill Hedges

    Kenny

    Mostly rants and off base.

    I’ll answer though not asked.

    This is not bible study.

    Article says:

    “A declassified Department of Defense briefing paper entitled “Islamic Investigation Issues” authored by William Gawthrop of SAIC and dated November 21st, 2003.”
    Followed by:

    “Employment by a non-Muslim government of a Muslim investigator to investigate other Muslims places the investigator in the position of violating the tenets of his beliefs and may force his recourse to deception, lying and/or the giving of misleading impressions.”

    Ending quote from paper on this aricle with:

    “A Muslim has a positive duty to protect his fellow Muslims from unbelievers and he is permitted to lie in their defense.”

    Landreaux rightly cuts JD on other religions:

    “The issue is not what “other” religions have done or not done in a historical context. It’s a question of what is dogma within the religion.”

    Try to recall purpose of “A declassified Department of Defense briefing paper entitled “Islamic Investigation Issues.”. Very specific. Not talking about other religions. Not saying others are perfect. Our war now has mostly Muslims. The study was for security. Can Muslims investigators give honest reports when dealing with Muslims. You should be able to see how that’s important to Dept. of Defense. They don’t judge religion.

    Relax. Argue with Pat Robbertson on religion.

  • JD

    I guess to start off my statement wasn’t that the bible explicitly say anything about lie, cheat, or kill in it’s name but my exact statement was “Christianity is littered with instances where it was OK to lie, torture, and kill in the name of god”.

    I don’t think i mentioned the bible at all. I just said that as a religion there has been a history (rightly or wrongly) where “so called” Christians have done atrocious acts in the name of their faith.

    However, I am a believer that Jesus was a non-violent leader and would stand appoaled with what “so called” christians have done under the guise of his name.

    All that said, there are plenty of controversial passages in the bible. Granted most are in the Old Testament…

    “They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.” (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    “A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.” (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

  • Bill Hedges

    It’s not good times for obama.

    Evidence is coming out about murders on Ft. Hood base. That horrible politically incorrect ‘T’ word may surface. Transfer payments and other things may be coming out. As well as fear of political correctness and being called racist may have stopped steps to release him from armed services. Fox pointed out that many other networks soft peddle till obama opened up a little. Yes the ahh struck media still worships the ground he walks on.

    Acorn is going to sue to get Congress to give them their money. Can Congress claim their broke.

    Iran charity got busted. Expected they help fund their nuclear program. Group gave $30,000 to Bill Clinton charity. Reminds me of obama, Bill ayres, and Acorn how they went back and forth among themselves with money. Humm. Mob cause it laundering.

    Plan for more troups on hold. All four plans dismissed by Prez. He made decide after his trip.

    Stimulus jobs way over actual numbers. After seeing on Fox first other channel picking up on it. Has obama corrected the numbers.

    But don’t worry about jobs. Obama announced Job Summit. Heard on CNBC during market time. After the smirks subsided someone asks ex-Fed Chairman what obama should do. Answer, cut taxes on small business. You mean pull a Reagan that caused longest running Bull Market. Never. Besides as John Kennedy said must have smaller government. Obama will never do. Obama is following Japan. Which claimed a ‘lost decade’ doing what obama now doing.

    Next stimulus coming ? Maybe. Obama will not learn.

    I’m sure I left out some of obama’s stellar moments…

    http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/wm327.cfm

    Hows Health care and Energy doing. humm.

  • Bill Hedges

    I left out another steller moment..

    You remember those unions that helped elect obama. Well they are not happy about tax on Cadillac health plans. You see that is what they have. We are already helping pay for car union folks heath insurance. Plus we gave them part of the company, stealing from secured loaners. They don’t want added tax. So Congress is working on raising tax on rich instead… What a Country.

  • Bill Hedges

    Now just to show how hard those car union folks want somebody else to pay their fair share on health insurance, let me add this.
    Before Congress decided to make rich pay more instead of unions, unions wanted to raise tax on each and every stock trade. That’s buying and selling. That seems to have been dropped. Maybe they figured out that would cost union pension plans ?

    I think American citizens need to join a Union instead of a political party. Unions look out for their members better. Especially with our present President.

    Isn’t obama the largest campaign spender of all times ? Thanks abortion group, Acorn, unions, and don’t forget trial lawyers (no tort reform). Obama pays his debts to special interest groups.

    Gotta love it

    John 3:16

  • JD,

    My mistake.

    Bill,

    Not worth responding too…

  • Bill Hedges

    Kenny

    I know you can’t. Truth hurts. I totally enjoyed writting the comments. Your response makes it all worth while. Thanks

  • Bill Hedges

    “Medicalizing Mass Murder”

    by Charles Krauthammer
    Friday, November 13, 2009

    WASHINGTON — “What a surprise — that someone who shouts “Allahu Akbar” (the “God is great” jihadist battle cry) as he is shooting up a room of American soldiers might have Islamist motives. It certainly was a surprise to the mainstream media, which spent the weekend after the Fort Hood massacre downplaying Nidal Hasan’s religious beliefs.”

    http://townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2009/11/13/medicalizing_mass_murder?page=full

  • Bill Hedges

    “MUSLIM SUFFERS BRUISED EGO IN FORT HOOD TRAGEDY”
    by Ann Coulter
    November 11, 2009

    “President Obama honored the victims by immediately warning Americans not to “jump to conclusions” — namely, the obvious conclusion that the attack was an act of Islamic terrorism. As conclusions go, it wasn’t much of a jump.”

    “But the mainstream media waited for no information — indeed actively avoided learning any information — before leaping to the far less obvious conclusion that the suspect’s mass murder was set off by “stress.”

    “The day after the slaughter, The New York Times ran one editorial and two of three op-eds asserting as much — which was at least one more than the Times usually runs about psycho-killer soldiers going on rampages.”

    “Two days after the mass shooting, the Times’ laughably predictable headlines about the Fort Hood bloodbath were:”

    — “Preliminary Inquiry Finds No Link to Terror Plot”

    — “Painful Stories Take a Toll on Military Therapists”

    — “When Soldiers’ Minds Snap”

    “The Los Angeles Times jumped to the exact same conclusion, running an article on the massacre titled: “Fort Hood Tragedy Rocks Military as It Grapples With Mental Health Issues.” Time magazine followed suit, posting an article titled: “Stresses at Fort Hood Were Likely Intense for Hasan.”

    “Inasmuch as Maj. Hasan had never been deployed overseas, much less seen combat, liberals seem to have discovered the first recorded case of “pre-traumatic stress syndrome.”

    “Their point was: The real victim of Fort Hood was Maj. Hasan. Indeed, all Muslims were the victims that day.”

    “The media quickly set to work assembling lachrymose accounts of taunts Hasan had been subjected to in the military for being a Muslim, the most harrowing of which seems to have been his car being keyed at his off-base apartment complex.”

    “I suppose we should be relieved that liberals weren’t claiming Hasan snapped because of the dimming prospects for a health care bill by the end of the year.”

    “The evidence for the manifestly obvious conclusion we were supposed to avoid jumping to is rather more extensive.”

    “According to numerous eyewitness accounts, Hasan denounced the “war on terror” as a war against Islam, said Muslims should attack Americans in retaliation for the war in Iraq, defended suicide bombers and said he was “happy” when a Muslim murdered a soldier at a military recruiting center in Arkansas earlier this year.”

    “Stranger still, he wasn’t auditioning for his own show on MSNBC when he made these statements.”

    “Hasan shared a “spiritual adviser” with two of the Sept. 11 hijackers, Imam Anwar al-Awlaki, whose unseemly enthusiasm for jihad got him banned from speaking in Britain, even by video link.”

    “A few years ago, Hasan delivered an hour-long PowerPoint lecture to an audience of doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, arguing that non-Muslims should be beheaded and have burning oil poured down their throats.”

    “He had tried to contact al-Qaida, and at least one U.S. intelligence official says the Army knew it.”

    “Despite being well aware of Hasan’s disturbing views and conduct, the Army did nothing.”

    “Far less offensive speech has been grounds for discipline or even removal from duties in the military. In the aftermath of the Tailhook scandal, for example, two Navy officers were reprimanded and reassigned after putting up a sign with the words of a nursery rhyme altered to include a vulgar sexual reference to liberal congresswoman Patricia Schroeder.”

    “But a Muslim Army doctor can go around a military installation somberly advocating the beheading of infidels, and the girls running the military treat him like he’s Nicole Kidman and they’re press junket reporters.”

    “The Army’s top brass, Gen. George Casey, responded to the military’s shocking decision to keep a terrorist-sympathizing Muslim in the Army by announcing: “Our diversity … is a strength.” And I thought gays couldn’t openly serve in the military.”

    “On Sept. 11, 2001, Muslims moved to the top of liberals’ victim pantheon on the basis of having slaughtered 3,000 Americans. Muslims were “victims” of Americans’ displeasure with them for the biggest terrorist attack in world history. The only American deserving of more coddling than a Muslim is the first African-American president.”

    “So, now any dyspeptic expression toward a Muslim is grounds for calling in a diversity coordinator. And when the “victim” attacks, as at Fort Hood, the rest of us are supposed to feel guilty because Hasan’s car got keyed once. As with all liberal “victims,” it is the victim who is massively guilty.”

    http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/printer_friendly.cgi?article=339

  • simple things please simple minds

  • Bill Hedges

    Poor boy

    You’ve been a dope head, seller, and in jail for beating up a woman. A woman.

    You came on site wanting old people euthanized. You insult and cuss. You agree when I said hard to believe you as a nurse from your behavior. Now your in mode of preacher Kin and use scripture to divert attention away from meaningful political discussion.

    I think you have proved one or two errors from my many comments. Your comments are mostly rants and attempts to inflame. One line barbs.

    The few political comments you do write are riddled with errs. You misquote others(recently JD but mostly me) and twist their statements and meaning in your paraphrasing so evident in past and most recent days.

    Now you say to me “simple things please simple minds”.

    Amusing…