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With the hysterical hype from the media and liberals in the government, you’d think that people were in the streets clamoring for government-run health care to fix our current system. New polls comparing the same questions asked in 1993 to today show that is not the case. In fact, they show the opposite sentiment, that the public has moved away from wanting the government to intervene in the health care market.
Pew Research reports:
Relatively few Americans believe the country as a whole is spending the right amount on health care at this point, but there is no consensus on what the problem is. Just as many Americans say we are spending too much on health care (38%) as too little (40%).
This represents a sharp turnaround in the balance of opinion from three years ago. In early 2006, a 57% majority said that the country as a whole was spending too little on health care, while about half as many (26%) said we were spending too much. And this shift in opinion crosses party lines – more Democrats, Republicans and independents today say the country spends too much on health care than said this in 2006.
In April 1993 – as Bill Clinton was initiating his health care reform effort – 49% of Americans felt the country was spending too little on health care, while 36% said the country was spending too much. Just a year later – in June of 1994 – the public was divided, much as it is today, with 38% saying too much and 40% saying too little.
That isn’t even the crux of it. When asked, similarly as in 1993, how the health care system needed to be “fixed,” this is the result:
But there is less support for completely rebuilding the health care system than there was during the early stage of the Clinton administration’s unsuccessful effort to revamp health care. In April 1993, a majority of Americans (55%) said the health care system needed to be completely rebuilt. As discussion of Clinton’s proposals progressed, support for completely rebuilding the health care system declined. By June 1994, just 37% said the health care system needed to be completely rebuilt.
Again, this is mainly an illustration of the disagreement many have, including Democrats, with President Obama’s big-government policies even though they “approve” of him personally.
Meanwhile, another issue which is all-but certain to turn the public off the Obamacare plan, congress is busy finding new things to tax in order to pay for the overhaul:
WASHINGTON (AP) – Early work on the ambitious health care overhaul the Obama administration is seeking has exposed the kinds of in-house fights that typify just how hard it will be to get meaningful legislation this year. Case in point: A proposal to help bankroll universal health coverage with a dime-a-can increase in the price of soft drinks.
House Democrats have lots of potential targets for higher taxes as they aim to expand health care coverage to reach the roughly 50 million that experts say are uninsured.
Also under consideration are higher alcohol taxes, increases to the Medicare payroll tax and a value-added tax, a sort of national sales tax, of up to 1.5 percent or more.
The list of options being weighed by the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, and obtained Thursday by The Associated Press, aims to raise some $600 billion over 10 years to partially pay for President Barack Obama’s goal of overhauling the nation’s health care system to tame costs and cover the 50 million uninsured.
The final price tag for that effort could top $1 trillion, with cuts to Medicare and Medicaid covering the rest of the cost.
The tax options include:
- Increasing the price of soda and other sugary drinks by 10 cents a can.
- Applying a potential 2 percent income tax increase to single taxpayers earning more than $200,000 a year and households earning more than $250,000.
- A new employer payroll tax could target 3 percent of employers’ health care expenditures.
- Taxing employer-provided health insurance benefits above certain levels – a less likely option but one that still is in the running.
House Democrats planned to unveil a draft of their sweeping health care bill Friday. It would require all individuals to obtain health insurance and force employers to offer health care to their workers, with exemptions for small businesses. A new public health insurance plan, strongly opposed by Republicans, would compete with private companies within a new health care purchasing “exchange” where Americans could shop for coverage. Government subsidies would help the poor buy care.
The public health insurance plan is the Trojan horse in this proposal. This is the part of the plan which will immediately have an affect on dismantling the private insurance market. Furthermore, more studies show that while the public plan will provide coverage to millions, some 21 million would be kicked off their current private plan as employers opt for the public option to offload costs. The results won’t be pretty as the government continues to concentrate power in Washington.
All of this points to the great possibility of defeating this government power grab and instituting an alternative plan which truly does promote competition.
Add in the fact that the American Medical Association, a group which has been pushing true reform, opposes President Obama’s public plan option due to the way it destroys a patient-centric model.
Karl Rove discussed an alternative Republican plan in a recent Op-Ed:
Fortunately, Sens. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma and Richard Burr of North Carolina, and Reps. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin and Devin Nunes of California have devised a plan that will likely appeal to anyone interested in making health insurance more affordable and portable.
Their proposal — called the Patients’ Choice Act — is to leave in place the tax deduction companies receive for providing employees with health insurance and to create a “Medi-Choice” tax rebate that will give individuals $2,200 and families $5,700 to spend on health insurance.
The rebate will make health insurance more affordable, especially for young people. It also will make health insurance portable, which will free people from being locked into jobs they hate because they are afraid of losing their health insurance.
The Coburn-Ryan plan also helps the hard-to-insure and chronically ill because it shares their risk across all insurance companies, providing lower premiums than they might find now. It would help those in Medicaid because they receive private insurance rather than being forced into a one-size-fits-all government program in which doctors are increasingly refusing to participate.
The House GOP also formed a Health Care Solutions Group that unveiled proposals yesterday. The group wanted to make health care more affordable, expand availability, and promote healthier life choices. It did this by proposing two-dozen ways to improve existing law to make it easier and more cost-effective to buy health insurance.
One proposal is to give families who purchase their own insurance a tax benefit similar to the one companies get for providing health benefits. Another proposal is to pass medical liability reforms that will reduce costly junk lawsuits. Still another would allow small businesses to team up to buy insurance at a group discount. The group also wants to allow families to save money tax-free for a wide range of health expenses and permit children to stay on their parents’ policies until age 25.
Under the group’s proposals, Medicaid beneficiaries would get the flexibility to choose private coverage, rather than being locked into a government-run program. The group is also calling for stepping up efforts to detect and punish Medicare and Medicaid fraud, which costs an estimated $60 billion a year.
Individual Republicans are also stepping forward with health-reform ideas, such as creating a national health-insurance market that would allow Americans to buy insurance across state lines. Sens. Jon Kyl (R., Ariz.) and Lamar Alexander (R., Tenn.) have offered other ideas, including expanding community health centers.
This is the first time congressional Republicans as a group have been comfortable talking about health care. It may be the product of necessity, but it is also necessary to get a robust debate on health-care reform.
Republicans need to talk about it because any plan which does not involved government control of your health care decisions will be more welcome by the public assuming it addresses the concepts of competition and affordability.
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“Also under consideration are higher alcohol taxes, increases to the Medicare payroll tax and a value-added tax, a sort of national sales tax, of up to 1.5 percent or more.”
Years ago cigs and booze was joined at the hip. Taxes was raised on both. Let booze tax equal that of cigs. 1000 % increase in drinks in bars won’t hurt business. Might cut down on deaths by drunken drives. They might drop their Health insurance to pay for booze. Priorities you know. $100 a mix drink, sounds good… Let;s make it $200.00. People will buy more at higher prices? Right Obama ? Will provide more job employment ?
So why does the public, as a whole, lack the resolve to boot the Reids and Pelosis out?
“Christopher Schwinger Jun 19th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
So why does the public, as a whole, lack the resolve to boot the Reids and Pelosis out?”
Concentration of people like you in their district
Man, I hope you are not basing the passing of Healthcare reform on this Poll. I wouldn’t want you to be disappointed.
“Man, I hope you are not basing the passing of Healthcare reform on this Poll.”
No, it’s just historical comparisons of the same poll questions to see how opinion shifts over time.
The point is that it doesn’t bode well for the President’s eventual single-payer government run system. People aren’t as stupid as Democrats think they are, not everyone wants the government making their decisions for them.
Furthermore, it illustrates the Obama hype of him as a candidate, not a policy-maker. He’s cool and such but many who voted for him wouldn’t know what he supported in the past if you beat them over the head with it.
Is Obama plan to manipulate dollar value to facilitate his
alternative energy program ?
Oil man Perkin had big plans for alternative energy. He stopped. Reason given alternative energy can not compete with cheap oil.
Obama has done his part by stopping off shore drilling and drilling on government land to try and raise prices. I am sure he looks forward to day when Alaskan oil pipe line closes due to lack of oil supply. As volume falls.
Perhaps what he never dreamed of occurring was America’s burning less fossil fuel. Supply and demand law lowered cost. Now prices are rising even though demand has not increased. Why ?
The dollar. Oil is bought in dollars. Among other things, the 7% of stimulas money spent and Federal reserve loans, the dollar is being devaluded. Government debt as well as debt in Socia security is making dollar worth less.
With no interest or minumal charges by Fed, Oil companies and super rich are storing oil and waiting for higher oil prices.
Economic news on CNBC has been discussing this.
Hidden Obamaic econmics.
Obama, actions have consequencies. Only proven way to get out of recession is cut taxes and smaller government. Not increase taxes, increase government size, and debts never seen in history of World.
Your actions raise cost of business and takes money out of reach for business to meet governmet new needs.
“Americans Evenly Divided Over Urgency of Health Care Reform”
Friday, June 19, 2009
“Forty-four percent (44%) of Americans say the Obama administration should wait on health care reform until the economy improves.”
“But 43% say health care reform should move ahead now, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of 10,000 adults nationwide. Twelve percent (12%) are not sure which course is best.”
“Despite the president’s stepped-up efforts to promote his health care reform agenda with the public, these numbers have changed little from the beginning of the month when 46% favored moving ahead while 45% said wait until the economy improves. In early March, 49% said health care reform should wait for a better economy, but 42% wanted to go ahead.”
“As expected, the partisan divide is huge. Sixty-four percent (64%) of Democrats say the administration should go ahead with health reform, but 69% of Republicans favor waiting until the economy gets better. Among adults not affiliated with either party, 41% want to move ahead now, but 45% want to wait for a better economy.”
http://www.rasmussenrepor.....are_reform
Add in the fact that the American Medical Association, a group which has been pushing true reform, opposes President Obama’s public plan option due to the way it destroys a patient-centric model.
I’d say that the way “private insurance” influences medical care that health care in 2009 is not “patient-centric.”
How many minutes a physician spends in the office with a patient is dictated by insurance companies. Tests that physicians orders are often dictated by what insurance companies will pay for. How long a patient stays in a hospital is often dictated by what medicaid/medicare will pay for. Pretty much everything in medical care is dictated by what insurance companies will pay for. The rest, tax payers flip the bill for, and god forbid a patient has no insurance, then we flip the bill for everything. This is also when the patients get BETTER diagnosing and hospital treatment because insurance isn’t dictating the care.
Ask the AMA about that and find a shocking answer. My former doctor went into early retirement because she was sick of insurance companies dictating how she can take care of her patients. She eventually went back into practice but is now a part of a medical group.
Medical groups are groups of physician working together, which in that sentence sounds good. But what it means is that when any of their patients goes into the office or even in the hospital, they are NOT likely to see the same physician each time. This is how patient care becomes far less personal that the days of going to see the town/village doctors. Now instead of physicians knowing their patients, physician simply read a chart and treat people based on physician notes.
Point being, if the AMA is against Obamacare simply because patient-centricity, that is a load of crap.
We have lost 5 physicians at my hospital in the past 2 years, all of which are moving to small towns because they are sick of having insurance companies telling them how to treat patients.
Take that how you want, but that is how I have seen health care since working in a hospital and I get this imformation from the mouths of the physicians that I have grown close to working here.
Kendale
“I’d say that the way “private insurance” influences medical care that health care in 2009 is not “patient-centric.””
All social health care in world is same way. If not worse. England is in crisis. It is breaking England. All you have to do read on this site or look up links and read the stories. At least with private you have contract. I have no idea if I have that assurance with government plan. They have been saying 36,000,000 will still not have insurance. They say cost is between 1 trillion and 1.6 trillion over next 1o years. And that may be rosy picture. Some of money to cover this will be taken from broke medicare.
“Ask the AMA about that and find a shocking answer. My former doctor went into early retirement because she was sick of insurance companies dictating how she can take care of her patients. She eventually went back into practice but is now a part of a medical group.”
Same thing happened in England when it went to social health care. American plan is to reduce Doctor specialist. Long lines for procedures if approved. New and expensive drugs will be curtailed.
“We have lost 5 physicians at my hospital in the past 2 years, all of which are moving to small towns because they are sick of having insurance companies telling them how to treat patients”
Obama’s plan is electronic medical records. Doctors must report care to patients. So even town Doctors will not escape. I to have learned from top ‘500′ Doctors in teaching hospital.
Reason for many test is to “cover Doctors” from law suites. If Congress would address this issue cost of health care would fall because of less test run and lowering liability insurance. One example is ‘C’ section.
” Pretty much everything in medical care is dictated by what insurance companies will pay for. The rest, tax payers flip the bill for, and god forbid a patient has no insurance, then we flip the bill for everything. This is also when the patients get BETTER diagnosing and hospital treatment because insurance is not’t dictating the care.”
Conclusion I believe is wrong. These folks don’t see Doctors often. To care for them Doctor must give more test at times to see the whole picture. Patient tends to care less for their bodies. And may very well be abuser of drugs.
Although care is minimal for these folks, necessary tests to draw correct diagnoses and prevent law suites may be more than patients that has regular health care. Example, I have diabetes and high blood pressure. I have long history(1985) of drugs used that work for me. A uninsured patient with same diseases needs more time. It took some time for Doctor to determine which drugs works for me.
So what do you think about these poll numbers Nate??? Seems like the shift is toward Healthcare reform…
Poll: Americans Want Public Health Insurance
NY Times/CBS survey finds 72% are in favor of a government-run health insurance plan.
Support for public health insurance: 72% in favor, 20% opposed, 7% no opinion
Among Republicans: 50% favor, 39% oppose, 11% no opinion
Among Democrats: 87% in favor, 9% oppose, 4% no opinion
Willingness to pay higher taxes so all can have health care: 57% willing, 37% not willing, 6% no opinion
Among those making less than $50,000: 64% willing, 27% not willing, 8% no opinion
Among those making more than $50,000: 52% willing, 44% not willing, 4% no opinion
Bill, you just wasted to much time with your response.
I was not making an argument that socialized medicine is good. I said private insurance in the US is not patient-centric.
“American plan is to reduce Doctor specialist. ” I am not sue what you mean by that. I hope you are not saying that we should reduce the usage of specialist physicians, that is absurd. Family practice physicians can not do much, so we need specialists. I made no comment about long longs or how fast you can have a procedure.
The only way to reduce the price of drugs is to reduce the price to get drugs approved. If it costs Billions-Trillions to test and get a drug approved, it’s only right to charge a lot of money to make up for the money it cost you to get the drug on the market.
You have a problem with having electronic medical records? I think that is best. Have you read the hand writing of medical professionals? I wish we were like our local VA. Our local VA uses ALL computer charting, including when physician write orders, they must type them instead of hand write them, it’s great.
“Reason for many test is to “cover Doctors” from law suites. If Congress would address this issue cost of health care would fall because of less test run and lowering liability insurance. One example is ‘C’ section.” – Bill
I totally agree. That is only partly true though. Many physicians, namely Resident Physicians, or tests because they are learning, which is stupid, you can learn without useless testing. Another waste is when doctors order “Daily Lab work” with no parameter to end this daily request. So patient end up being in the hospital for moneys getting the same lab work daily while the lab results are never changing.
“Conclusion I believe is wrong. These folks don’t see Doctors often. To care for them Doctor must give more test at times to see the whole picture. Patient tends to care less for their bodies. And may very well be abuser of drugs.”
Perhaps your intention is good hear, but your are ultimately wrong. Simply because these patients take less care of themselves does not mean that you have to order more tests/labs to find out if a patient has, lets say, cholecystitis versus a healthy person have cholecystitis (Inflammation of the gallbladder).
My point from your quoted statement was that “Medical Residents” order useless things. If the same patient had a Attending physician or a private physician, that doctor will not order so many tests for the simple fact that they KNOW they are not needed. A nurse knows when a patient has medical residents on their case simply by looking at orders, it’s a running joke in our hospital. It’s even been a running joke in television.
“Although care is minimal for these folks, necessary tests to draw correct diagnoses and prevent law suites may be more than patients that has regular health care. Example, I have diabetes and high blood pressure. I have long history(1985) of drugs used that work for me. A uninsured patient with same diseases needs more time. It took some time for Doctor to determine which drugs works for me. ”
I understand your argument. In the case of prescribing medications for medical problems, example hypertension, it is necessary to try a patient on various drugs to find out which one works. I don’t argue that, I simply argue things such as:
Sequential compression devices for 19 year old patients here for a nose bleed.
Daily CBC, CMP for a 30 year old patient with pneumonia and perfect labs on admission.
Readmitting drug seeking patients only to allow them to take up a bed for two days, give them drugs, and you discharge them without running any tests.
Running every test known to man on a patient with low gatric emptying rate and allowing that patient to remain in the hospital, literally for 3 months, when the physician has verbally said this patient does not need to be in the hospital. Then ordering daily labs and tons of PRN (as needed) narcotics.
We can do this in reverse as well.
Doing abdominal surgery on a patient who over the next to days develops an extremely distended abdomen, no bowel sounds, does not pass gas, and has uncontrolled nausea and vomiting, and instead of doing an CT Scan of the abdomen, you say, well lets just give it a couple more days and give her medication. Then after day 4-5 you do the CT Scan, see she has a bowel obstruction or possibly paralytic ileus and then give the patient the NG tube and total parenteral nutrition when you could have done the NG tube 3 days prior and the patient could possibly have gone home after 2 more days.
Ok, I’m babbling now, but those are real examples of how health care is not actually working with private insurance. And how there is wasteful spending both on ordering unnecessary things and NOT ordering things that are necessary.
Kendale
I worked as a custodian at University teaching hospital in Columbia, Mo. for 1 1/2 years waiting for my early retirement age and involvement in diabetes study by my Doctor with government grant that established my disability without question. Was approved first try due to my work records and my participation in this study. Study showed the progression of the disease over a 1 1/2 year period. Based on their periodic testing of my feet and other things.
One of their finest children teaching Doctors told me much of what I have said. I have no personal knowledge in this field. I had to leave my field of work because of health.
I know they checked the care that interns gave. Checked the record of test. I find it hard to believe supervisor Doctor did not approve the test. Or corrected improper procedures. After all, he too would be dragged into any law suite that Intern got into.
However, Eye problems is associated with diabetes. I developed a eye infection. Once I went in and tested 20/20 with my glasses. Another time I tested very bad. Head eye Doctor was called in. He re-tested and confirmed same as Intern stated. Condition was caused by my disease as head Doctor explained to us. I was asked and consented to take a most up to date test. Checking small vessels behind my eyes. This was done for free as a employee and many interns observed and took part in this test. Average patient would have been charged I am sure. Usefulness of test may be in doubt to some. As some feel about whole body screens. Since there are many false readings. Or gas filled intestine check for cancer is not as satisfactory as old fashion probe up the anus. Plus you have the worse gas in your life.
As I said I am not an expert in medicine. But I know Interns do not have free reign, they do have supervisors. And procedures are not always cut and dry. Sometimes wait and see is prudent.
University of Missouri Hospital had to accept the worse and most costly uninsured patients from all over the State. Had something to do with land grant rules. I never understood or was told. There was a VA hospital next to my Hospital with contract for care.
Maybe my ignorants of Hospitals draws me to wrong conclusions.
When I mentioned less specialist that was from my readings on Obama’s health plan. That is or was part of this changing plan. More general and prevention Doctors. And likely 36 million still won’t be covered. Many will lose their health plan.
Purpose of electronic records I spoke of was ease in changing Doctors and reporting care you receive to government. Which means they can deny care as they see fit. England is going through this. Example is drug cancer care. Expensive drugs are not being given for at least some situations.
In my “C” section example, normal birth is not done for law suite reason. Furthermore, Doctors will not do births on women who had no prenatal care by them for law suite reasons. They must go to ER to have baby at time when I left hospital. I guess is same way today. Preconditions can be attempted to be blamed on attending physician. That was how it was explained to me.
For hypertension, There is nuclear test that checks for bent vessels involved with kidneys that is one cause of this disease. It also checks equal similar size of kidneys. This is test I could see a Intern ordering for example. My Internal Medicine/nuclear Doctor ordered it for me. Test for kidneys are done regular on me because drugs and I suppose disease can damage them. This is why I said a lot of test can be ordered on patient who does not see Doctor with any sort of regularity.
Another example I had a unknown heart attack. In preparation for oral surgery it was discovered when given EKG They ran tube up my leg to my heart. Luckily I lost only 5 % with no scaring and have no heart issues. Thus I can see a EKG be given to those with diabetes and high blood pressure.
I could see colestrial test as well as check neck artery blockage for those that have high. I have had high bad but equallly high HDL. Had bad TRIG but excellent leg circulation. Medicine has lowered to 120.
Point I am trying to make is that a lot of tests can be related to my diseases. I can see Intern ordering lots of test for patients that had not been seeing Dctor.
I had problem and went to ER. They discovered my hypertension or was it my diabetes.. They ran no test on me but I had a Doctor I saw on regular bases.
Years ago I traded AMGN. Back then R&d ran roughly $250 million for a drug with no guarantee of FDA approval. Although research could be useful in other ways. I hear tell tell now it may run $800 million. Cost varies.
R & D will surely fall off drastically under Social health plan as it has in Countries wherethey have it.
Interns are watched by their teaching Doctors. Since I have no direct relationship to that, that is all I can say.
My points on liabilty insurance was discussed many times.
I know they checked the care that interns gave. Checked the record of test. I find it hard to believe supervisor Doctor did not approve the test. Or corrected improper procedures. After all, he too would be dragged into any law suite that Intern got into.
You are absolutely right, all resident doctors work under an Attending Physician. When you try and find out the doctor of the patient, it often says the name of the Attending, not the resident on the case. That is not to say the residents have to ask the attending to order a test, it happens. You are absolutely correct in your statement though. Anything that goes wrong with the patient, the Attending is liable for that patient, which is scary because their are a lot of Residents working under a single Attending.
“When I mentioned less specialist that was from my readings on Obama’s health plan. That is or was part of this changing plan. More general and prevention Doctors. And likely 36 million still won’t be covered. Many will lose their health plan.
Purpose of electronic records I spoke of was ease in changing Doctors and reporting care you receive to government. Which means they can deny care as they see fit. England is going through this. Example is drug cancer care. Expensive drugs are not being given for at least some situations. ”
Ok, I understand now.
“In my “C” section example, normal birth is not done for law suite reason. Furthermore, Doctors will not do births on women who had no prenatal care by them for law suite reasons. They must go to ER to have baby at time when I left hospital. I guess is same way today. Preconditions can be attempted to be blamed on attending physician. That was how it was explained to me.”
That depends on the hospital. My hospital delivers crack babies from uninsured crack mothers all the time, it’s a running joke here as well. Whenever a baby is delivered in my hospital there is a lullaby played over the PA System, and some people say “Another crack baby is born”. This is actually one of the reasons I chose to work here. We take anyone under any condition, no matter what. We give them the care that the need and that which they deserve as human beings. If Obama abolishes that with his health care plan it would be f*cking devastating to the Tampa Bay area.
“For hypertension, There is nuclear test that checks for bent vessels involved with kidneys that is one cause of this disease. It also checks equal similar size of kidneys. This is test I could see a Intern ordering for example. My Internal Medicine/nuclear Doctor ordered it for me. Test for kidneys are done regular on me because drugs and I suppose disease can damage them. This is why I said a lot of test can be ordered on patient who does not see Doctor with any sort of regularity.”
Diabetes + Hypetension = Eventual Kidney Failure. So if someone has diabetes and hypertension, the simple test is a lab test done with blood. BUN and Creatinine levels will tell you if the kidneys are functioning up to par. As far as looking at blood vessels, I don’t really see that as needed as long as the BUN and Creatinine levels are within normal range. I can understand it as preventative health and checking to see if “They are on the track of failure” but that is totally a luxury exam (Elective). If people want to pay out of pocket for elective things like that, they should, but demanding that insurance companies pay for it sounds like another way to have our health care cost more money.
We have portable EKG machines. We do not even have to charge them money for it. It’s free. EKG’s in my hospital are no more expensive then taking a blood sugar (Accu Check). If ANY patient says, My chest hurts and has hypertension, we automatically do an EKG with no physicians order.
I agree many test are relevant, but some are not. I still hold firm that Residents order test that other physician state are not needed.
Say we have a patient with abdominal pain and they have no insurance. They will be automatically assigned to medical residence as that is our protocol for patients without insurance. They will order a GI consult which means a GI doctor will consult on the patient and will check the X-ray’s and CT scans that the resident and/or ER Attending ordered. Now there is a seasoned physician on the case. This is when I usually hear doctors complaining about all the tests that medical residents order. I am not saying medical residents do not have good intentions, nor am I even saying that are not following what they have learned in school word for word. Perhaps doctors who complain about the tests ordered are sometimes out of line, but at the same time they have been working as doctors for a long time and know which tests are not needed to get to the same conclusion.
Perhaps I am trying to much to pinch a penny, but every penny pinched helps to decrease health care costs and helps the patient to have less medical debt, which is also a nice thing to do.
So, overall, I agree with you thoughts on needed tests, but just know that not all things ordered are necessary to treat the patient, and do a good job with them. Sometimes tests are simply luxury tests.
Wow, how great it was to talk back an forth without name calling and ridiculing.
Reason I am up late on week ends is to study my channeling stocks list that I receive on Thursdays more thoroughly. Channeling means a stock tends to have a range in which lows occur on a consistence time frame. I day trade. I check their business, debt, rating, and historical prices among other things. I look for price falling or rising as well as inside trading. How much variation in low price and % of profit to invstment and expected time held.
By this time of night I am usually tired. Otherwise I would go through the articles and pull your beginning the insults. Then post it here.
I don’t have the energy to provide that proof now. Irratate me enough and sooner than later I will do my homework…
Welp I thought we were trending towards good, I guess I was wrong. See how I can misintrepret things with you? Sometimes I think you mean to insult when you don’t and other times I think we are getting along well and we’re not. I just don’t get you.
I suppose I will remain peachy towards you from now on or I will simply ignore you and not reply at all. For future reference when I don’t reply to something you say, understand that this is my way of avoiding negativity and “NOTHING” else. So don’t misunderstand my silence for ANYTHING else then avoiding your negativity.
God Bless You
“Wow, how great it was to talk back an forth without name calling and ridiculing”__ Afraid this got my response. Usually one reaps what one sows.
I won’t change so don’t respond.
Karl Rove is a treasonous dog. He abused his power to betray our nation’s security and put American lives in danger for his petty vengeance. I don’t understand how you can quote him and still rail against Chris Dodd or any other corrupt self-serving politician that dances on the national stage. If we’re not going to put him in prison, he ought to have the decency to vanish into obscurity.
http://www.youtube.com/wa.....5yxFtTwDcc
Here’s a good video on OBAMA DRIVING WAY OVER THE SPEED LIMIT.
bones
“Karl Rove is a treasonous dog. He abused his power to betray our nation’s security and put American lives in danger for his petty vengeance.”
I call this a blank statement. You give no evidence or reason to support your claim. Just accusations.
It is sad this site has come to personal insults and blank statements. This makes for no discussion in my book.
Appears Liberals here do not want to talk issues. Not that I can blame them
“So what do you think about these poll numbers Nate??? Seems like the shift is toward Healthcare reform…”
Maybe you should examine the sample in that New York Times poll before you remove doubt of your ability to think critically and do research.
http://hotair.com/archive.....obamacare/
How shocking that CBS News and the New York Times are pushing Obama’s agenda for him with a skewed poll. JD, this was as predictable as your continued lap-dogging for your dear leader.
So to answer your question, JD, that is what I think of that poll. It is overblown and doesn’t match reality, just like Obama. Check the sample data next time before you build false-confidence in your own rebuttal.
Bill, great posting on this topic!
Bones,
“Karl Rove is a treasonous dog. He abused his power to betray our nation’s security and put American lives in danger for his petty vengeance. I don’t understand how you can quote him and still rail against Chris Dodd or any other corrupt self-serving politician that dances on the national stage. If we’re not going to put him in prison, he ought to have the decency to vanish into obscurity.”
This took some guts for you to write this garbage. What a double standard. Obama has violated how many constitutional amendments since he took office 5 months ago? He continues to abuse and corrupt Executive Power with his 22 czars and that number will only increase. Hmmm, no check and balance there. The only boss these czars will have is Obama himself and look at what he does when one of his own questions him, he fires them. I will ask you to remember that it took Russia 400 years to accumulate 21 czars, it has taken Obama 5 months to appoint 22.
The constitution clearly spells out in the Bill of Rights that to separate the United States from other nations our government must have checks and balances. At this current moment with Obama appointing czars left and right with no congressional hearings/appointments, he is violating his Executive Power. The funniest part about it to me is, the man taught constitutional law. I thank God that my constitutional law professors taught our class how to read and interpret the constitution. If I were a parent or student that sat through one of Obama’s con law classes I would be demanding the school give a refund.
Your post has no facts behind your argument that whatever it is you think Rove did warrants jail time. You my dear put forth one crappy argument and you failed to acknowledge your home boy and all his constitutional short comings, short comings that warrant impeachment.
Conservative Gal
Thank you.
Conservative Gal
The following is a email I got from my Brother. It comes from a hero of mine. You should read link in article. This man…What a history he has.
……….
Charles Krauthammer is on Fox news panel at 5:40 – 6 PM CST
most every night.
He lives in a wheel chair.
He’s my hero
Thought you might like to see this. These are interesting times, wonder what kind of country and opportunities we are going to leave for future generations.
Subj: Charles Krauthammer Speech / Comments on the ‘New Economy’ & Barack Obama
To my friends & associates:
Last Monday was a profound evening, hearing Dr. Charles Krauthammer speak to the Center for the American Experiment. He is a brilliant intellectual, seasoned & articulate. He is forthright & careful in his analysis, & never resorts to emotions or personal insults. He is NOT a fearmonger nor an extremist in his comments & views. He is a fiscal conservative, & has a Pulitzer prize for writing. He is a frequent contributor to Fox News & writes weekly for the Washington Post. The entire room was held spellbound during his talk. I have shared this with many of you & several have asked me to summarize his comments, as we are living in uncharted waters economically & internationally. Even 2 Dims at my table agreed w/ everything he said! If you feel like forwarding this to those who are open minded & have not drunk the Kool-Aid’, feel free.
Here is his resume from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w.....rauthammer
A summary of his comments:
1. Mr. Obama is a very intellectual, charming individual. He is not to be underestimated. He is a ‘cool customer’ who doesn’t show his emotions. It’s very hard to know what’s ‘behind the mask’. Taking down the Clinton dynasty from a political neophyte was an amazing accomplishment. The Clintons still do not understand what hit them. Obama was in the perfect place at the perfect time.
2. Obama has political skills comparable to Reagan & Clinton. He has a way of making you think he’s on your side, agreeing with your position, while doing the opposite. Pay no attn. to what he SAYS; rather, watch what he DOES!
3. Obama has a ruthless quest for power. He did not come to Washington to make something out of himself, but rather to change everything, including dismantling capitalism. He cannot be straightforward on his ambitions, as the public would not go along. He has a heavy hand, & wants to ‘level the playing field’ with income re-distribution & punishment of the achievers of society. He would like to model the USA to Great Britain or Canada.
4. His 3 main goals are to control ENERGY, PUBLIC EDUCATION, & NAT’L HEALTHCARE by the Fed. govt. He does not care about the auto or financial services industries, but got them as an early bonus. The cap & trade will add costs to everything & stifle growth. Paying for FREE college education is his goal. Most scary is healthcare program, because if you make it FREE & add 46,000,000 people to a Medicare-type single-payer system, the costs will go thru the roof. The only way to control costs is with massive RATIONING of services, like in Canada. God forbid.
5. He’s surrounded himself with mostly far-left academic types. No 1 around him has ever run even a candy store. But they’re going to try & run the auto, financial, banking & other industries. This obviously cannot work in the long run. Obama’s not a socialist; rather a far-left secular progressive bent on nothing short of revolution. He ran as a moderate, but will govern from the hard left. Again, watch what he does, not what he says.
6. Obama does not really see himself as President of the USA, more as a ruler over the world. He sees himself above it all, trying to orchestrate & coordinate various countries & their agendas. He sees moral equivalency in all cultures. His apology tour in Germany & England was a prime example of how he sees America, as an imperialist nation that has been arrogant, rather than a great noble nation that has at times made errors. This is the 1st President ever who has chastised our allies & appeased our enemies!
7. He’s now handing out goodies. He hopes that the bill (& pain) will not ‘come due’ until after he’s reelected in 2012. He’d like to blame all problems on Bush from the past, & hopefully his successor in the future. He has a huge ego, & Mr. Krauthammer believes he is a narcissist.
8. Republicans are in the wilderness for a while, but will emerge strong. We’re ‘pining’ for another Reagan, but there’ll never be another like him. He believes Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty & Bobby Jindahl (except for his terrible speech in Feb.) are the future of the party. Newt Gingrich is brilliant, but has baggage. Sarah Palin is sincere & intelligent, but needs to really be seriously boning up on facts & info if she’s to be a serious candidate in the future. We need to return to the party of lower taxes, smaller govt., personal responsibility, strong nat’l defense, & states’ rights.
9. The current level of spending is irresponsible & outrageous. Obama is spending trillions that we do not have. This could lead to hyper inflation, depression or worse. No country has ever spent themselves into prosperity. The media is giving Obama, Reid & Pelosi a pass because they love their agenda. But eventually the bill will come due & people will realize the huge bailouts did not work, nor will the stimulus package. These were trillion-dollar payoffs to Obama’s allies, unions & the Congress to placate the left, so he can get support for #4 above.
10. The election was over in mid-Sept. when Lehman brothers failed. Fear & panic swept in, we had an unpopular President, & the war was grinding on indefinitely w/o a clear outcome. The people are in pain, & the mantra of ‘change’ caused people to act emotionally. Any Dim would have won this election; it was surprising is was as close as it was.
11. In 2012, if the unemployment rate is over 10%, Republicans will be swept back into power. If it’s under 8%, the Democratss continue to roll. If it’s between 8-10%, it’ll be a dogfight. It’ll all be about the economy.
I hope this gets you really thinking about what’s happening in Washington & Congress. There’s a left-wing revolution going on, according to Krauthammer, & he encourages us to keep the faith & join the loyal resistance. The work will be hard, but we’re right on most issues & can reclaim our country, before it’s far too late.
Amazing that Obama has done so many violations of the Bill of Rights and has done so many supposed things that warrant impeachment yet I do not hear about anyone actually building a case which that can bring before the courts against Obama.
Now that would be interesting to see. Someone actually doing something they believe in, rather than pointing fingers and playing the blame game.
The power is in the people right? If you do not like your president and you feel he is in violation, feel he has done things to warrant impeachment, then by all means begin the impeachment process.
The reason I feel this is simply blowing smoke is the same reason why none of the Bush haters did anything about Bush, other than reelect him for a second term. I will be interested in seeing the results from the next presidential elect, because if Obama does a second term, well, WOW.
They surely do not make it easy to discover and read newly sign legislation. Obama signed legislation on Monday concerning tobacco regulation and I am having difficulty find exactly what it is that he signed on Monday.
I have found various tobacco regulation links, but when I read them, they are dated Jan-March 2009. Perhaps these are links to what he has signed but the actual legislation was written back in January.
Ah, I was right, this is the actual legislation in question.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi.....xVRhhW:e0:
How do you post link here without moderation being needed?
Well, I have no idea how to post a link here without “You comment is awaiting moderation” popping up.
This is the legislation signed. Just thought it was interesting to read what Obamaland wants you to see on their youtube channel.
H.R.1256 <—-To protect the public health by providing the Food and Drug Administration with certain authority to regulate tobacco products, to amend title 5, United States Code, to make certain… (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)
Example here is also that not just the president creates or passes legislation.
In the legislation:
(9) Under article I, section 8 of the Constitution, the Congress is vested with the responsibility for regulating interstate commerce and commerce with Indian tribes.
(11) The sale, distribution, marketing, advertising, and use of such products substantially affect interstate commerce through the health care and other costs attributable to the use of tobacco products.
(14) Reducing the use of tobacco by minors by 50 percent would prevent well over 10,000,000 of today’s children from becoming regular, daily smokers, saving over 3,000,000 of them from premature death due to tobacco-induced disease. Such a reduction in youth smoking would also result in approximately $75,000,000,000 in savings attributable to reduced health care costs.
Finding some way to make it appear constitutional to destroy the tobacco industry will help the economy by reducing the amount of money spent on the health case of those who use these tobacco products.
If Obamaville reduces the amount of losers who actually inhale the smoke created by burning tobacco leaves, his health care plan will be “less bad” Haha
(15) Advertising, marketing, and promotion of tobacco products have been especially directed to attract young persons to use tobacco products, and these efforts have resulted in increased use of such products by youth. Past efforts to oversee these activities have not been successful in adequately preventing such increased use.
I have actually seen this. The stores where I live sale various flavors of tobacco products that really grab the interest in teenagers here. They see strawberry, apples, and other flavors and it drives them to try the products which leads to addiction to the chemicals in the product.
(27) International experience shows that advertising regulations that are stringent and comprehensive have a greater impact on overall tobacco use and young people’s use than weaker or less comprehensive ones.
I wonder which contries implement these stringent and comprehensive regulations that cause less people to smoke.
It is try, tobacco really needs not advertise tobacco products, as the people who use them and sell them do enough advertisement to expose all humans under the sun to see them and know about their availability.
(38) As the National Cancer Institute has found, many smokers mistakenly believe that `low tar’ and `light’ cigarettes cause fewer health problems than other cigarettes. As the National Cancer Institute has also found, mistaken beliefs about the health consequences of smoking `low tar’ and `light’ cigarettes can reduce the motivation to quit smoking entirely and thereby lead to disease and death.
I like this one. It’s ture, light cigarettes cause the same health problems and do trick witless people to believing that the don’t have to stop smoking, but smoke light cigarettes and they will be inherently more safe from the diseases that smoking causes. Hell, you can smoke tobacoo-less cigerettes and still get COPD, smoke inhalation alone, regardless of the item burning can cause lung disease.
I really don’t understand why people believe it is any different then burning wood in a fireplace on are a bar b q grill and sticking your head in the created smoke and inhaling, on grounds of it being unhealthy. Smoke is bad people, it is not a good thing to have it in your lungs.
“How do you post link here without moderation being needed?”
Wordpress bug, I think I have fixed it now. Sorry for the annoying problem, it’s been like that since I updated to 2.7 months ago.
Bill,
Your post, if the people spoken about were changed, sounds like a build up, or being during, the civil war. What happened to United We Stand, Divided we fall.
I am with the post on economic issues, but the rest I must disagree with. Yes, wasteful spending is bad. International politics, whose intentions are to gain allies, is not bad. Perhaps you do not like the way Obama is going about attempting to gain allies, but if it works, you can not deny it. It is obvious that the world has and has generally had a horribly view of the United States and its politics, just ask any foreigner. The thing they like about this country is its freedom to do as they please and makes lots of money while they do it. That does not make this country great, it makes this country, as I’ve stated before, gluttonous for power, evil, and money. Outside of that, our country is not one who is liked.
As JD feels, I feel as though dividing the country and wage war in which one side can “recapture” the country is wrong.
“I hope this gets you really thinking about what’s happening in Washington & Congress. There’s a left-wing revolution going on, according to Krauthammer, & he encourages us to keep the faith & join the loyal resistance. The work will be hard, but we’re right on most issues & can reclaim our country, before it’s far too late. ”
If we at at war with each other, how can we defend ourselves against others. We should be united, as we are called the United States. If can not even agree amongst ourselves we simply look like two children fighting amongst each other for a toy.
Testing the ability to post the Tobacco Legislation Link.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi.....:H.R.1256:
Kendale
“I am with the post on economic issues, but the rest I must disagree with. Yes, wasteful spending is bad. International politics, whose intentions are to gain allies, is not bad. Perhaps you do not like the way Obama is going about attempting to gain allies, but if it works, you can not deny it. It is obvious that the world has and has generally had a horribly view of the United States and its politics, just ask any foreigner. The thing they like about this country is its freedom to do as they please and makes lots of money while they do it. That does not make this country great, it makes this country, as I’ve stated before, gluttonous for power, evil, and money. Outside of that, our country is not one who is liked.”
I would like to see the polls
……….
“Kendale Sturdivent Jun 23rd, 2009 at 7:47 pm
In the legislation:”
What is your link ?
……….
“If Obamaville reduces the amount of losers who actually inhale the smoke created by burning tobacco leaves, his health care plan will be “less bad” Haha ”
What right do you have to insult people ? You know you should not say that about Obama !
……….
Are you qualified to diagnose mental or physical conditions on sites such as this ? You talked about it with jd.
……….
You need to read about Krauthammer. As well as re-read what he wrote. He is very well educated and level headed person.
He is not saying “we simply look like two children fighting amongst each other for a toy.” That is an insulting misrepresentation of his remarks.
……….
As I have stated before, you put you link in the following comment. Thus your comment is seen immediately. I want to read link. At times I have found mistakes by person interpreting link.
……….
Obama said he would post 5 days before signing bill into law.
There goes those trumpets from the heavens again!
I am not interested in poll, they are too easily manipulated.
Can I diagnose a mental health condition. RN school teaches us to diagnose mental health conditions, yes. We actually have a psychosocial nursing course. It is geared towards nursing diagnoses and not medical diagnoses but if you read the textbook it is basically the same. So am I qualified to know from signs and symptoms, a medical diagnoses of the mental health type, the answer to that is 100% yes.
I was not discrediting Krauthammer. I was disagreeing with the beliefs that Obama is wrong for what he goes around the world and say. This is my opinion just as Krauthammer has an opinion. You can not diagnose right and wrong when it comes to “Is Obama right or wrong for the conversations he has without people around the world.” It’s his prerogative who he talks to and what he talks about. You may want him to talk differently, that is your opinion. I in no way was attempting to interpret Krauthammer’s statement at all, so you are misinterpreting my comment.
In regards to what ever link you are talking about, I in fact don’t know what link you are referring to at all.
The link to the legislation about FDA having power of the advertisement of tobacco products?
D.D.Mao
You’re fond of the book of revelations eh? lol
Kendale
You have no medical right to come on here diagnoing mental and physical conditions. You know that. You are insultig, plan and simple.
“So am I qualified to know from signs and symptoms, a medical diagnoses of the mental health type, the answer to that is 100% yes.”
Are you qualified to give that opionion on this site ? As a medical expert? Without ever seeing ? You don’t have Doctors guiding patients treatment ?
Since I don’t believe you, provide link showing you are right…
Kendale
“In regards to what ever link you are talking about, I in fact don’t know what link you are referring to at all.”
Maybe this will refresh your memory__
““Kendale Sturdivent Jun 23rd, 2009 at 7:47 pm
In the legislation:”
What is your link “
Kendale
Kendale Sturdivent Jun 23rd, 2009 at 9:35 pm
“I am not interested in poll, they are too easily manipulated.”
Then you have no proof when you say__” our country is not one who is liked.”
Is just your opinion ?
Preacher,Psychiatrist,Nurse and Arch angel………
I’m combining this thread along with
No I don’t try to use or twist the scriptures around to take on any meaning thats conveinant for my arguement.I also don’t hold a psychiatrist degree (nor play one on TV NOR THE INTERNET)so as they would ask in court “Do you have a psychiatrist degree? Then you aren’t an expert are you”.I don’t take any medical diagnosis by you with any more seriousness than you would take me for being a military expert because I’m the only one on this site with that background.Thats the ground work.
Now you have a problem with “attacking opinions on the basis of credibility”? Would it be to much to ask just how did you come to this opinion or are we just supposed to be accepting it as fact because it’s your opinion? By accepting it unchallenged “it would be a discredit to this site” of which you stated “means little”.
Here’s some medical advice for you the air is thin taking the high road and preaching about the country being united when it suits your beliefs.BUT don’t go around preaching unity and then SPOUT”I DON’T ALWAYS CARE TO LISTEN TO OTHER PEOPLES PROBLEMS.I JUST LIKE DIAGNOSING”
“Bush slams Obama on economy” thread 23 June @1:58AM
OR your quote “I’m only here for the entertainment”
“Obama reverses on taxing health care benifits”thread
`13th June @11:31PM
Bill,
So if that is true about me, then why do you seem to understand how to save the US Economy, how the president should go about foreign policy, ect. Are you an expert on those topics? Or do you simply not like the way things are going, make decisions based on what you’ve seen other presidents do that end up with results that you would prefer?
I don’t have link to text books and my experience, the first would be illegal, and the latter would be such a technological advance that I’m sure we’ll have to work the kinks out of.
Link to legislation is there if you scroll up.
Kendale Sturdivent Kendale Sturdivent UNITED STATES Jun 23rd, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Testing the ability to post the Tobacco Legislation Link.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi.....1:H.R.1256: ‘
When I stated the US is commonly not a liked country, I also, in the same statement, said, ask any foreigner. Ask them what their country-mates commonly say about the US. I commonly talk with people from other countries on the internet that continuously have negative things to say about the US. I am again, not interested in polls, I go on what I hear from the mouths of whose opinion I speak of.
Like Nate says, do the research. Find out what the world thinks about the US. It might be more fun that going back and forth with me about it.
D.D.Mao
So, what’s going on in the world of politics, since we all know what’s going on with me. Do you have an opinion about the world, politics, and how it affects us here in the US?
Let’s say this, I am pegged as what ever you would like to peg me as, now lets get back on track, you decide politics, not you decide who I am, what I stand for, and what I can and can not do.
I attempted to do this with my comment on the legislation signed on Monday. I tried to talk about something other than personal issues, yet it always seems to go back to discussion about my character, and my commenting back about the character of those discussing my character.
It would be great to talk about the issues and our opinions of the issues. I will do my best to simply discuss the issues, and my thoughts about the issues from now on. I am refrain for ever commenting on what I think of any of you, and I will also not respond to anything that anyone thinks of me or my character, or abilities, of authority.
Kendale
I would appreciate that. Personal insults should be left at the door when entering this site. Whatever authority you have at work, belongs at work, not here.
The following is me, ivgensrv, asking a none US citizen about how the world, as he knows it from living in other countries feels about the US and its politics. Although in a sense this is an attempt to show you how I came to my conclusion early, its is by no means definitive proof of the comment, it is simply showing you how I come to this type of conclusion, which is, by listening to people from other countries comment on it.
[22:55] sabbat: u ever live in the US?
[22:56] ivgensrv, nope
[22:56] i’m close enough
[22:56] What are your views on US politics?
[22:56] negative or positive?
[22:56] the black man is win
[22:56] I stated on a political website that the world has a negative view on the US and it’s politics.
[22:57] Someone stated that this was not true and stated I must prove it with polling
[22:57] so, they were prolly american
[22:57] yes
[22:57] which is funny, considering, you are as well
[22:58] Do you think the world generally has a negative or positive view of the US and its politics?
[22:58] negative
[22:58] Well, I like to think I try to find truth, not be delusional.
[22:58] well, now that W is out, it’ll come better
[22:58] sabbat: Where are you from, and where do you live? (countries)
[22:58] jeez, i thought that was obvious
[22:59] I dunno, OZ, and then Canada
[22:59] Laughs Out Loud
[22:59] bingo
[22:59] and, it’s aus
[22:59] ok
So this is a person from Australia who later moved and now lives in Canada. He is only one of the many people I talk to on a regular basis that do not like in the US. I have frequented an IRC network and channel that is a melting pot of various people from various countries over the past 17 years. I listen to them talk about how their countries have felt about the US over these 17 years. This is why I have come to this assumption about the worlds views of the US.
You can also see on the news, including FoxNews, when you see anti American news stories. It’d like to think I do not need polls, and that it is common knowledge that the world does not approve of the US imposing its force upon other countries. That they commonly laugh at our politics. I don’t commonly browse the internet to find sources of information to further prove what I have seen with my eyes on the news, via chat, hear with my ears, and that which I find to be fairly common beliefs for anyone who watches television.
In future I will flatter all with links to websites that also follow the ideas that I have heard elsewhere so that it doesn’t appear I am simply blowing smoke.
That is one person in how many trillion ? What does that really prove, except how he feels. There are sites out there slanted toward certain idealogy.
Kendale…..Excuse me but you were the one who stated “I’m not here to discuss or debate.I’m only here for the entertainment”(Obama reverses on taxing health care benifits”thread 13 June @ 11:31 PM)also “I don’t always care to listen to other peoples problems.I just like to diagnose”(”Bush slams Obama on economy”thread 23 June @ 1:58AM) And when we talk about the issues you piss and moan about unity and being pegged with political tags.You want opinions to be accepted unchallenged without any supporting data.If this is your idea of discussing the issues perhaps you should find another group thats not so threatening.
hrm, when I pasted the above it showed the irc nicknames of the people speaking next to there statement, now it does not show.
[22:55] ivgensrv sabbat: u ever live in the US?
[22:56] @sabbat ivgensrv, nope
[22:56] @sabbat i’m close enough
[22:56] ivgensrv What are you views on US politics?
[22:56] ivgensrv negative or positive?
[22:56] @sabbat the black man is win
[22:56] ivgensrv I stated on a political website that the world has a negative view on the US and it’s politics.
[22:57] ivgensrv Someone stated that this was not true and stated I must prove it with polling
[22:57] @sabbat so, they were prolly american
[22:57] ivgensrv yes
[22:57] @sabbat which is funny, considering, you are as well
[22:58] ivgensrv Do you think the world generally has a negative or positive view of the US and its politics?
[22:58] @sabbat negative
[22:58] ivgensrv Well, I like to think I try to find truth, not be delusional.
[22:58] @sabbat well, now that W is out, it’ll come better
[22:58] ivgensrv sabbat: Where are you from, and where do you live? (countries)
[22:58] @sabbat jeez, i thought that was obvious
[22:59] ivgensrv I dunno, OZ, and then Canada
[22:59] ivgensrv Laughs Out Loud
[22:59] @sabbat bingo
[22:59] @sabbat and, it’s aus
[22:59] ivgensrv ok
if you are interested in the views of other countries on the US, check on IRC. Also I am currently discussing socialized health care with a woman from Canada who thinks it works just fine there.
There are tons of people that frequent irc, that are not politic chat rooms, they are compeltely for other things. If you ask them their opinion on things, they tell you. The chat room where these people are is a channel for chat about movies. Nothing to do with politics. So they are not biased.
All I am saying guys, is to talk to the people to be able to say how they feel. Don’t read a website or a news paper, don’t turn on FoxNews. Talk to the actual people of the world.
We live in an age where communication with people from other countries is very easy.
Ask the people of countries with socialized health care how they feel about it. Don’t read about it, or see what people on a news broadcast say. Ask the people who live it, the little people, not political figures and big corporate people who get on television say, of course they are hand picked.
D.D.Mao
You are not threatening by any definition. I welcome differing views, I do not shy away from them, obviously.
I don’t know how you missed our discussion here on Canada. For MRI you might have to travel far to get and wait in line for period of time to receive. Lack of care, etc.. If you would like to discuss this we can. Not tonight, I must get up early to trade.
We do not say things generally without examples and/or link. Take DDMao cmment above as example. I agree with him completely.
I hope you mean you will change. Not your politics, but what you and I have talked about. And what DDMao mentioned. I don’t care about excusses you give, just the end result.
Quoting Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along”
How I missed a discussion on here is that I have not also been on here, I came for a while, went a long time without coming around here, then came back again. I have not followed every thread since this site’s beginning.
I am not saying you don’t use internet links to back up statements either. I am simply introducing another way of knowing about other countries, which is, talk to citizens of that country, rather than rely on news media, which as you will both agree is corruptible and potentially biased.
[23:49] Steferoo tell your buddy
[23:49] Steferoo until he’s waited in line in a canadian hospital
[23:50] Steferoo then he doesn’t have a whole lot to go on
[23:50] Steferoo american news articles on the state of canadian health care is bunk.. it’s slanted one way or another
God forbid a news article not really grasp the state of Canadian health care as a whole. I mean I’m sure if someone in the news media or on the internet said something about health care in Canada, it was 100% accurate.
Kendale
Your chat means nothing to me. It is worthless. No creditability.
Maybe DDMao suggestion of you going to anoher site like your chat would be best for you. Solid evidents is expected here.
Kendale ….Bill is right your 11:08 post doesn’t prove anything.I have two friends who are UK citizens and have been trying to come to America for years.Am I supposed to draw the conclusion the world loves America?The media can make anything look like they want and have opinion swayed.In fact how many of these recent demonstrations who were against say the World Bank have demonstrators holding signs for “Legalize Pot” and “Save the Whale”How many of these dictator run countries do you think organized these demonstrations you see on the news because they know the American media is recording this.Thats why Iran is kicking out reporters because it’s not making them look good.Perhaps you should browse the internet for other views and not depend on television and take personal OPINION AS JUST THAT….OPINION
I’m having trouble posting. I’m signing off
Here is a long list of various polls about how the Arab world feels about the US in 2009, specifically Obama and his administration.
http://www.brookings.edu/.....n_poll.pdf
DDMao
You are right. America needs fences to keep people out.
I never heard that problem in France.
Like you said, Dictators play to the news.
I am not sure what DDMao meant about trouble posting , but could be all this jumping around to answer you Kendale. That needs to stop. I get dizzy
Kendale
You didn’t have a poll before, so you searched and found this one. I guess it is creditable in your eyes. I will take one more look for another comment from you, then go to bed.
Bill,
I guess I am damned if I don’t use polls, and damned if I do. “It’s hard out here for a pimp.” haha <— joke.
I didn’t mean it like that exactly. I am getting very tired. Thanks to Obama’s speech today I could not make profits on my stocks. It dropped while he talked. Market did not like what he said. I hope it is short lived and I can get some of my expected profit tomorrow. It will be much smaller I expect. His energy tax is going to be hugh hit on all classes, not just those making more than $250,000. Looks like he may get rid of Fed. Chairman and put in yes man.
Anyhow, my mind is shutting down, I must go to bed.
I’m honestly amazed that anyone doesn’t know what events would have led me to call Karl Rove a treasonous dog, willing to put American lives and weaken America’s national security for petty vengeance. I guess Fox news was never too interested in talking about our undercover national operative, Valerie Plame, or how Karl Rove leaked her identity – putting an international undercover government servant’s life at risk, and effectively destroying her current service and future career.
I thought it was covered ad nauseum in the media, but for the unaware there are certainly countless articles on the subject. Here’s one:
http://www.reuters.com/ar.....SN12387618
It really doesn’t take much guts to call a spade a spade.
Hrmmm
http://www.reuters.com/ar.....SJ20090624
Bones……..This is current news or are you just fishing for an excuse to avoid other topics? If you want to bitch about treasonist acts how about the New York Times? They have a reporter vanish(abducted) for 7 months and don’t say squat about it because of “his safety” but feel no quams about revealing tactics and operatives used in the war against terrorism.But then they are a liberal tool and we wouldn’t expect you to notice a double standard there.
Kendale…………In regard to your remark about asking people from around the world what they think of socialized health care.I have asked my friends in the UK and they think it sucks.Tony had to wait 6 months for an MRI and another 4 months for a back operation.BUT I don’t base my opinions solely on that I read reports and articles on cost vs effectiveness and get a full picture.
Now for your comment on talking to other people from around the world on what they think of America.Using this site as an example if anyone read this site they would get the opinion that America is a Conservative country.Yes this site does lean right (and we have 5 vocal Conservative members) but thats the editors right.My point being you have no idea who is editoring these sites you are basing your information on and they are INDIVIDUAL OPINIONS.Even if someone on one of these sites told you “The CIA ran a black-op in my country” you have nothing to base this on.Unless you are strictly looking for someone to tell you what you want to hear!
Paper on the FAILURE of Mass. Health Care Plan can be found at:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf
DD, I only posted it because people asked me to give evidence to the names I called. I only brought it up because he’s still being quoted like he might have some drop of integrity left that warrant listening to him.
I believe people were questioning why you brought it up out of the clear blue in the first place.As to his integrity and his being listened to it’s probably in the beliefs of the listener.To us on the right he’s very highly regarded.In fact columnist Jonah Goldberg of National Review said his dream ticket for 2008 would have been Cheney/Gramm. I’d vote for that in a heart beat!
Yes, a highly regarded treasonous dog who endangers the safety of this country for person vendettas. I gathered that. I didn’t bring it up out of the clear blue. I asked how anyone could quote men like Karl Rove while railing against the corruption of other politicians such as Chris Dodd. If you don’t like corrupt self-serving politicians, don’t listen to corrupt self-serving politicians.
I’m disgusted with some of the men on both sides of the isle that our country has been looking to for leadership. Degrading men on one side of the isle will not make Karl Rove any less of a traitor.
He was a part of an administration that started a war and invaded a country because our foreign intelligence was terrible, and guess who was abusing his power to expose our operatives? He deliberately put the lives of American servicemen into jeopardy and he probably has a “support the troops” bumper sticker on his car.
DD I don’t know how you can say his integrity is a matter of the beliefs of the listener. Much like so many have said about Obama, I think it’s matter of the listeners gullibility.
bones
Of course I agree with DDMao. Add to that evidents when making statement.
For example. If I wrote that Obama was planing a take over of America government, I am sure all here would be questioning my beliefs. Want something stronger than my word.
Add examples, reasons, links,etc. to your comments. It strengthens your stance ad makes clearer your view.
I posted the link before Bill. I don’t believe my stance is weak here: it was a major scandal, it led to Scooter Libby being imprisoned and Rove eventually resigning his post with the Bush administration.
bone
You may have a strong case, I am not really knowledgeable.
Your previous comment was getting insulting.
We can drag Obama’s past in now and condemn him. Should we do that on stay current and let sleeping dog snooze.
Bones……..First off you sound like the Claude Raines character in Casablanca”Outraged,simply outraged to find this going on” when the person has a (R) after his name.You say both sides of the aisle but seem to forget to include any.Next I refuse to get into a pissing arguement over something that happened two years ago and it was found out that Richard Armatage was the one who outed her not Rove.She wasn’t even a field agent that would have been in trouble but an office operative.
Wheres your outrage for exposing photos and ops plans by members of Congress and the media that really put our troops in harms way?
As I said I can’t be bothered with this anymore.
All I ask is that anyone willing to quote men like Karl Rove should not pretend to care about corruption or issues of integrity, nor should they fool themselves into believing they are listening to a man that supports our government servants abroad.
If you look to traitors for leadership, you don’t have business turning your nose downward at the leaders of others.
Actually DD, I mentioned as many corrupt democrats as I did republicans. But if you can’t be bothered with this anymore than don’t be.
bones
I think you know what you asked is not going to happen. DDMao made some great points in his last comment and you seem to have ignored them.
You have right to your stand on this, but can not dictate ours.
Bones,
Do you keep count of how many corrupt dems/repubs that you point out? Is there a requirement to keep it at a particular ratio? If so, why on earth would you do that? What’s the point? What do you have to win or lose on this matter? Does it benefit someone, somehow?
lol, my goodness, how silly.
Kendale
DDMao point was “You say both sides of the aisle but seem to forget to include any”
bones replied “bones Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Actually DD, I mentioned as many corrupt democrats as I did republicans. But if you can’t be bothered with this anymore than don’t be.”
Well I don’t see it on this article. Did I miss it ?
You said ” What’s the point”
Point is truth. Did bones do what he said on this article. If he pointed out in different article he should so state.
Truth of ones words either adds or distrasts from a person’s believeability.
Kendale
You’re right, it is silly. I wasn’t purposefully keeping track though, I just went to check when DD mentioned it. I do think it keeps things in perspective by giving fairly even scrutiny to both sides though.
Bill
I did, but I don’t particularly think it’s relevant, I just thought I’d mention it. Assume that I’m lying about trivial matters, if that makes your day. I’ll assume you’re a silly man looking for any excuse to dismiss me. Really, wouldn’t ignoring me be less time consuming?
I know that whenever I post a comment on a specific article posted by Nate, I am going to discuss that particular article, I am not going to try and copy and past all my comments from other articles, but I get your point Bill
Bones…….Congratulations! I was right in my 24 June @6:59 AM post and you did deflect the conversation from it’s original topic.
bones
“Bill
I did, but I don’t particularly think it’s relevant, I just thought I’d mention it. Assume that I’m lying about trivial matters, if that makes your day. I’ll assume you’re a silly man looking for any excuse to dismiss me. Really, wouldn’t ignoring me be less time consuming? ”
Little things somtimes matter. I proved you lied about Bush not condemning Isarels actions.
Now you are demeaning me ?
No, your credibility to truth is proven to be lacking.
Get real.
Kendale
“Kendale Sturdivent Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:38 am
I know that whenever I post a comment on a specific article posted by Nate, I am going to discuss that particular article, ”
Is that a fair and true statement? I personal write whatever pleases me. Don’t you ?
“, I am not going to try and copy and past all my comments from other articles, but I get your point Bill ”
Thanks.
DD
I didn’t respond to your comments because you said you couldn’t be bothered with the discussion. But since you seem prepared to bother again, could your provide a source for your Armitage comment? If his guilt cleared Rove that’s news to me, but my understanding was that they were both involved.
As for the outrage you think I should be expressing about photo leaks by our media, well I think the msm is utter crap on the whole. I will rail against them at length at some point if it makes you happy.
Bill, you are a petty man. I have no memory of discussing Bush’s condemnation of Israel, certainly not lying about it. I suspect you have me mixed up with someone else, but I’ve posted enough that I could simply have forgotten the conversation.
At any rate take this information and be pacified: I repeatedly mentioned Karl Rove and Chris Dodd here, two politicians as filthy as they come. I mentioned them both in my comments: Jun 22nd, 2009 at 12:26 pm AND Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:04 am. However I was writing about Rove, as he was the one quoted heavily in the article.
bones
It was under alter-ego name, Path. He has disappeared and you emerged like the mythical Phoenix
Bill
I was posting here before Path was. This will be my last post responding to you.
Gee_You break my heart…I don’t blame you. I will continue to scrutinize you comments…
By Karl Rove
June 17, 2009
“The GOP Can Stop ObamaCare”
“The public is in no mood for drastic changes in current coverage.”
“It’s extremely unlikely that Republicans will be able to pass their own health-care plan in this Congress. But in politics you can’t beat something with nothing, so it is critical that the GOP offers an alternative to President Barack Obama’s government-run monstrosity.”
http://www.rove.com/articles/162
Kendale
“Kendale Sturdivent Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:38 am
I know that whenever I post a comment on a specific article posted by Nate, I am going to discuss that particular article, ”
Is that a fair and true statement? I personal write whatever pleases me. Don’t you ?
“, I am not going to try and copy and past all my comments from other articles, but I get your point Bill ”
Thanks.
Sorry bill, it was a typo of mine.
I meant I am NOT going to refer to other articles while I am commenting on any specific one at the time.
ok
bones…………Sorry I took so long to answer but life gets in the way
The story is so old I no longer kept any links I had pertaining to it.I imagine you could just as easily google “Richard Armitage” it as it would be for me.As far as Rove he was investgated and cleared….Now you might not like the results but thats the way it came down.
In regard to my remarks about I can’t be bothered I felt we were dwelling on a story that was old and had no connection to the topic being discussed.Thats all I was infering.
Speaking of life, i need to cook. haha bbl
“Ironically, as the U.S. is on the verge of rushing toward government health care, Canada is reforming its system in the opposite direction. In 2005, Canada’s supreme court struck down key laws in Quebec that established a government monopoly of health services”
http://online.wsj.com/art.....96929.html
Another good link from this
http://www.gohealthinsura.....3400686687
There are some decent insurance plan there. Once you meet the deductible they’re pretty decent. It’s unfortunate having deductibles though. It’s like being uninsured every year until you pay $2,000-$10,000 depending on the plan. While many will not have a problem paying the deductibles, some will likely struggle a good deal trying to do so.
Wow. So I entered my personal information into the gohealthinsurance.com website and I get a phone call 3 hours later with a guy telling me about health insurance options. I told him what I have now and he says that he can get me the same plan for $250/month if I did not get the insurance through my employer.
The amazing thing about that is he said there would be $0 deductible. This is United Health Care. I have EXCELLENT insurance with them. That is very affordable. He says it would be cheaper if I was not 70-80lbs overweight like I am.
We had a conversation about Obamacare versus what is out there. We also talked about medicaid here in Florida. He says that the insurance options that he can negotiate are better than having medicaid as long as the person is fairly healthy, plus physician do not like dealing with patient who have medicaid because it takes a great deal of time for medicaid to pay physicians.
He also talked with me about the situation in Massachusetts. He says in that state the government is forcing the citizens to buy into health insurance and if they don’t, they can not work. He also states that the cost for health insurance there is 2 to 3 times more expensive than what it would cost here in Florida which has caused some people to leave the state. Granted, the cost of living there is much higher than in Florida so I’m sure they get paid more than we do here. But the point remains that government forcing those people into buying insurance is driving people to leave the state. He did also mention that many of the people there LOVE the idea, so, we have those who like it, and those who don’t.
That was a great conversation I had with that gentleman. Thank you for providing a link on your page for gohealthinsurance.com Nate, it provided me with much more information about health insurance than I was expecting, especially providing me a phone call with someone who works in health insurance providing me valuable information.
Perhaps if more people health what I heard this morning, they would not support a government option. Now, I will provide this information to other people in hopes they will pass it on as well. That is what I call, doing something about the issues.
BTW, I pay only $60/month for my health insurance, but that is because my employer pays for the rest.
http://newt.org/tabid/102.....fault.aspx
Command-and-Control Doesn’t Work. Competition and Choice Do.
I’m a conservative who believes that America desperately needs real change in our health system. But we will never get to that if we can’t get beyond this endless debate over government-run healthcare.
The fact is, command-and-control from Washington doesn’t work. Competition, choice and individual control will produce the health system we want.
To truly bring down costs and expand coverage we need to build a bipartisan agreement focused on four things:
1) Improving individual health by incentivizing prevention, wellness and early health.
2) Giving doctors and hospitals incentives to deliver high-quality care through fair and proper payments.
3) Reforming public programs like Medicare and Medicaid to root out fraud, cut waste and reward quality.
4) Empowering individuals with the information and financial resources they need to be better, more-informed consumers.
The Center for Health Transformation has developed an approach that will improve individual health, lower costs and deliver the best possible care. Tell your representative that any health reform bill must have these basic principles.
Those four things look pretty similar to what I was saying should be done, primarily 3 and 4. I guess Newt and I have similar beliefs about health care.
I am going to buy and watch his movie “Rediscovering God in America.”
Before I do, I will already have a bit is disagreement. Religion is different for many American’s so as far as having God in politics, government ect is a bit scary. I am all for taking religious morals and values and implementing them but my no means would I sit back and allow someones own personal religious beliefs dictate the life I lead.
Also, being anti-secular is ok in the sense that everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but to say it is wrong, is just that, wrong. We have freedom of religion here and that goes for secularists as well. Religion is not just Christianity, hell Christianity is such a NEW religion as it is when compared to other world religions. It appears to me that all three of the Abrahamic Religions, Judaism, Christianity (and Catholicism), and Islam have been greatly politicized, to the point that other religions appear more spiritual, Daoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and secular religions.
My point is, it’s perfectly fine to bring shared morals and values from various religions in politics, just as long as we don’t turn into a country that dictates laws based on a single religion, that would be evil. So many religions turn to the Golden Rule and The Commandments of the old testament, minus those pertaining to god.
Do not lie, steal kill, covet, commit adultery, honor thy mother, father, ect, sure, but when you start to get too deep into religions, things tend to get a bit overbearing and bizarre.