Obamacare “cost-benefit” analysis, are you worth it?

For all those in favor of turning health care over to our ultra-efficient, ultra-responsible federal government, you might want to take a minute to grasp exactly what this will mean for you if you’re ever faced with a catastrophic illness.

The concept of “care-rationing” is happening in socialized medicine countries all over the world to deal with limited resources and increased demand. As it currently stands in this country, health care revolves around you, the patient, who gets to decide what you want to pursue based on your own resources, desires etc..

Under a government-controlled health care system, the onus would be on the federal government to decide what they want to pursue on your behalf in terms of treatment for any type of illness. The government will decide literally if it is worth providing you a treatment based on your age, life expectancy and a whole slew of other variables. If you don’t pass the cost-benefit analysis, you will probably not get the care you need despite your own potential ability to pay for it yourself.

Professor Stuart Altman explains touches on this concept and how “cost-benefit” analysis will become necessary under an Obamacare plan:

The speaker, Professor Stuart Altman of Brandeis University, tells the committee that resources get wasted in the American health-care system, especially for one segment of the population. Professor Altman says he’s reluctant to mention it, but why waste money on in-depth treatment for people who won’t live long anyway? Better to warehouse them and save the resources for the young.

Hot Air analyzes:

Once again, we have people taking the shortage, rationing approach to its logical conclusion. In a non-shortage, free-market approach, people can choose for themselves whether to pursue cost-effective strategies based on their own resources, and the free market would incentivize the creation of enough resources to meet the demand. Only by restricting choice and setting prices will resources become scarce, which we have seen gradually for the last several decades in our own heavily-regulated health-care system, and seen dramatically in the various single-payer systems around the world.

What happens when the state controls all the resources? New resources do not develop, and the government winds up rationing care based on its own priorities, and not the priorities of the patients or caregivers. Professor Altman’s suggestion that the elderly get hospice treatment to save scarce care resources is exactly the kind of decisions the state will make for its citizens, and it won’t be limited to the elderly, either. Anyone whose value does not show a positive “cost-benefit” ratio to the state will also likely wind up without the kind of care necessary to stay alive and healthy.

That’s the bottom line right there. New resources will be crushed meaning Obamacare will create a high demand for “free” health care with dwindling resources. Basically we’ll be left with the social security equivalent of health care. A system from which people take more than is possible to give and never get back what they put in. Although, isn’t that what government is all about?

So some unaccountable bureaucrat will be sitting in Washington determining if your life is important enough to spend precious resources on. Gee, sounds peachy to me considering how well the government manages time and money!

That is not the direction we want to be heading nor should we. Free market principles applied intelligently can reform the already heavily-regulated health care industry.

  • D.D.Mao

    “ARE YOU WORTH IT”? Lets listen to Canadians and Brits who have been under socialist health care for a while now…….and the American liberal left think is such a great system.It can be found at:

    http://www.facesofgovernmenthealthcare.com

  • Bill Hedges

    Senators weigh tax hikes to pay for health care
    By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON – “Senators are considering limiting — but not eliminating — the tax-free status of employer-provided health benefits to help pay for President Barack Obama’s plan to provide coverage to 50 million uninsured Americans.”

    “Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., said Tuesday that there are no easy options. Senators began grappling with how to finance guaranteed coverage, a cornerstone of Obama’s plan to overhaul the health care system. Independent experts put the costs at about $1.5 trillion over 10 years.”

    …”But those savings — even if the industry delivers every penny — won’t all accrue to the government. So the financing package for Obama’s plan is likely to include a mix of tax increases and spending cuts in federal health programs.”

    “Among the possibilities: tax increases on alcoholic beverages, tobacco products and sugary soft drinks, and restrictions on other health care-related tax breaks, such as flexible spending accounts.”

    ANOTHER PROMISE BROKE ?

    “On the controversial question of taxing health benefits, Baucus is staking out a position that could put him at odds with Obama.”

    “The president adamantly opposed such taxes during the campaign, arguing they would undermine job-based coverage. Obama’s aides now say he’s open to suggestions from Congress, even if he criticized Republican presidential rival John McCain for proposing a sweeping version of the same basic idea.”

    “Baucus said he wants to modify the tax break, not abolish it.”

    “We are not going to repeal it,” he said.

    “Baucus suggested that the benefit could be limited by taxing health insurance provided to high-income individuals, although he did not specify at what income levels. He also said that plans offering rich benefits — for example, no co-payments or deductibles — might be taxed once their value exceeded a yet-to-be-determined threshold”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090513/ap_on_go_co/us_health_overhaul

    Government at work__

    “To rob Peter to pay Paul”
    Proverb quotes

    “A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.”
    George Bernard Shaw

    …..
    “We need to take steps to strengthen and mend Social Security so that its promise of a secure retirement is just as real for seniors in the future as it is today.”
    Herb Kohl

    Social Security and Medicare finances worsen
    By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Write

    WASHINGTON –” Social Security and Medicare are fading even faster under the weight of the recession, heading for insolvency years sooner than previously expected, the government warned Tuesday. Social Security will start paying out more in benefits than it collects in taxes in 2016, a year sooner than projected last year, and the giant trust fund will be depleted by 2037, four years sooner, trustees reported.”

    “Medicare is in even worse shape. The trustees said the program for hospital expenses will pay out more in benefits than it collects this year, just as it did for the first time in 2008. The trustees project that the Medicare fund will be depleted by 2017, two years earlier than the date projected in last year’s report.”

    HEALTH CARE MONEY BE WASTED AS SOCIAL SECURITY MONEY WAS

    “The trust funds — which exist in paper form in a filing cabinet in Parkersburg, W.Va. — are bonds that are backed by the government’s “full faith and credit” but not by any actual assets. That money has been spent over the years to fund other parts of government. To redeem the trust fund bonds, the government would have to borrow in public debt markets or raise taxes.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090513/ap_on_bi_ge/us_social_security

    If Government can not shore up Social security, what faith should I have in their health care future…

    …..

    British Parliamentarian Warns US About Socialized Health Care
    By Bob Ellis on March 31st, 2009

    Is America going to end up like England ?

    “Hannan was on Sean Hannity’s show a few days ago and while he talked about this incident, he talked about something that may ultimately be more relevant and important for America: government health care.”

    “HANNAN: The worse thing is for you as the recipient of health care because you’ve got no control over what you get. There’s no contractual relationship between you and the suppliers, so, you know, if they treat you today or next week or six weeks from now, where it’s too late because your condition has already deteriorated… there’s nothing you can do about it. You are expected to queue up with a smile and be grateful for what you have.”

    http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/03/british-parliamentarian-warns-us-about-socialized-health-care/

  • Path

    If you have the money you’ll still be able to get care no matter what. If our healthcare is so great why are so many going to India instead for major surgeries and half the cost?

  • D.D.Mao

    Path…….More people come to America for treatment and surgeries from around the world than go to India.If the Democrats learned one thing from Hillarycare in the 90’s it’s that you don’t try to get to much at one time you do it in incremates.Once you get a foot hold you expand and get more power.And thats the bottom line power…..they could give a rats butt about the treatment provided

  • D.D Mao and Bill, this scares me to death. Everything the government touches, crumbles. Just look at social security, the public school systems, welfare programs….Now they want to destroy our health care. The politicians don’t seem to get it, Universal health care has failed in Europe,Canada, where ever it is utilized. However, they claim that this won’t happen in America, how can they honestly say this.

    Path, I pay for my health care out of pocket and b/c I do, I get a great percentage off the total bill. When we we’re living in NY (now VA) the health care cost were insane. I would budget my blood work and office visits in every six months so it wasn’t a shock to the budget. Now the Physicians assistant that I was seeing didn’t take cash, I wasn’t allowed to pay in cash at the time of my visit. Every visit was the same, they would ask for my health insurance, I would tell them that I preferred to pay in cash, they would hand me a medicaid(NY welfare) form. What was that all about, every time I would argue that if I was willing to paying in cash why would I need medicaid? I was forced to pay in cash because NY State does not offer college students insurance plans. In NY they made it impossible to purchase private health insurance. It’s nice to live in a state now (VA) that gives you the option to pay in cash and get this, they actually reward you will 30% off the bill, at least at my new doctors office. Here in VA private health insurance is also affordable.

    However,Path, If I were told tomorrow that I had to have a surgery that was expensive along with a hospital stay, then no I could not “budget” that in. That’s what insurance is for. I wouldn’t not want my option for health care to dissipate b/c Obama and congress want everyone to suffer. We could have the exact argument with health care as we has with school vouchers, the government feels that people need to be punished for success, in this case good health care. If the poor have bad health care then so should the rest of America, except for the government of course.

    Next thing will be to cap doctors salaries. Obama is destroying capitalism one day at a time. Yes we can! and yes he is!

  • Path

    Yup Obama and the democrates want everyone to slowly die in the streets while hospitals crumble. How did you learn of our plan so early? Time to go back to our doom cave to plot some more.

    I forget what did the Republicans do to get healthcare costs under control? Oh yea the passed Medicare part D for trillion. Without even the power to negotiate drug prices or enforce standards. Great going.

    While when Obama gets 2 trillion in cuts from the healthcare industies everyone screams foul

  • “I forget what did the Republicans do to get healthcare costs under control? Oh yea the passed Medicare part D for trillion. Without even the power to negotiate drug prices or enforce standards. Great going.”

    I didn’t support that and still don’t. I support government getting the hell out of the way and letting the free market work. Health care is already way too regulated and that has hurt everyone.

    Then again, if more regulation hasn’t work, the Democrats will be stupid enough to think that we need still more to kill off any chance of free market principles working.

    Also, you’re a fool if you think the government will not have to use care-rationing and deny certain people certain procedures. They do it in Canada and Europe already. It’s why people die from cancer in Canada much more than they do here. Open your eyes and stop spouting idiocy.

    Path, get a clue and research for yourself for once. It would make you at least look smarter than you really are.

  • Path

    What has your party done to lower healthcare costs in this country? Any ideas? We currently spend 17% of GDP on healthcare. more than anyother industralized country.

    Every system has care-rationing. Insurance does it too. Or they just won’t give you insurnce because the condition would be too expensive. If your 90 would you want to spend a million+ for a couple extra months in pain? I know I wouldn’t. But if you got the money no one will stop you. Even under Obama’s plan.

  • D.D.Mao

    Path…….Have you at least listened to the link I put in the first post of this thread? It’s how Canadians and Brits DESCRIBED getting health care RATIONED OR DENIED.STOP CHUGGING THE KOOL-AID AND TRY RESEARCHING.They will get their foot in the door and expand and expand it until we are under total GOVERNMENT control.

    Nate and I aren’t saying reform isn’t needed but we want it under the free enterprise,competition level not GOVERNMENT.In fact Nate made a list not long ago on how this can be done.

    There is nothing in the Constitution that gives the President the right to “REMAKE AMERICA” as he is so fond of spouting only to obey and defend the Constitution.

  • Path

    Article I section 8:
    The congress shall have the power To…provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;…
    To regulate Commerce…

    No one is saying Obama is making laws but he can still put pressure. No one is saying we should adobt a fully Canada or British system. We are going to have an American system. Insurance compainies can refuse to cover a person ineffect dening them care because they would be too expensive. We will still have a private system as long as it can provide good care for cheaper than the compitition. Do you think that a 80 year old who has burned out their savings is going to pay for dialysis on their own? And magically, the market would respond to this?

    Frontline did a excellent program on healthcare cost in America. But i’m sure you’ll all as its worthless communist facist crap or whatever the new buzz word is.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/generic.html?s=frol02p6f&continuous=1

  • “What has your party done to lower healthcare costs in this country?”

    The Republican Party hasn’t done anything better than the Democrat Party, they’ve both been in favor of too much regulation and it’s failed. Unfortunately Obama wants to use yet more regulation which will be an even bigger failure.

    Neither party is pushing free-market capitalist solutions which would solve the problem and keep the patient-centric model. I hope a leader emerges who can push such policies before it is too late and Obama ruins America’s health care like Canada.

    “If your 90 would you want to spend a million+ for a couple extra months in pain? I know I wouldn’t.”

    That’s fine for you but you don’t have the right to decide that for someone else. If you think you do, then you’re getting into euthanasia where we simply end the lives of the elderly when they become a burden. That is a sick, sick mindset you have. You’re fine with the government deciding when to pull the plug because you’ve reached the end of your useful life. That is disgusting and totally immoral in so many ways I can’t even begin to count.

  • Path,

    “General welfare” doesn’t mean taxpayers money is used to pay for your health care. In fact, if you go down this road, you could say the government should provide food, jobs, housing and everything else which makes up a person’s “general welfare.”

    General welfare simply means what it says, in general. Not specific things but just the general welfare. The government should create a framework in which the free market can thrive, not destroy it. The government is there as a referee when someone makes a foul, not there to become a player in the game.

  • Path

    A private model isn’t a patient-centric model. Its PROFIT centered. Nothing else. Their shareholders can even sue them if they try. They’ll drop a person as soon as they become too expensive. And you think I have a sick mindset?

    And you have about 200 years of case law to study befor you can claim what general welfare means. They left it vague for a reason. Madison and Hamilton didn’t even agree. Plus they have the power to REGULATE commerce including healthcare.

  • “A private model isn’t a patient-centric model. Its PROFIT centered. Nothing else.”

    The truth comes out. You’re simply anti-capitalist and anti-profit which explains a lot of your intellectual shortcomings on this subject. It’s sort of like, “oh dear, Doctors make money off sick people!” Yes, they do and they SHOULD! They went to medical school and you didn’t! So God-forbid they charge for their services when they operate on your prostate.

    You’re in favor of socialism so you don’t even really want to argue the merits on this, that’s fine.

    You and I have differing philosophies, that’s all. You believe government is the solution to your life and I believe it’s simply in the way of mine. I wish you well and I hope someday you realize that you are the the person most likely to cause your own success, not the man in White House, whoever it is.

    Closing question, where has all this glorious regulation on the health care industry got us so far? Hmmm?

    That’s what I thought. It has created the system we have now.

    See, the misnomer is that free market principles ran health care into a ditch. That’s totally false as free market principles have not been applied to health care by both parties for a while now. We’ve had nothing but regulation followed by more regulation and more government programs. Now we have a mess for some people who depend on the government for everything, like you.

    I can’t understand why people are against free market capitalism. It gives the power to the individual, not the government. Then again, some people are afraid of being able to fail so they want the government to rescue them. Well failure is a part of life, suck it up.

  • Bill Hedges

    Madison on the Meaning of the “General Welfare,” the “Purpose” of Enumerated Powers, and the “Definition” of Constitutional Government
    Leonard R. Sorenson
    Assumption College
    According to James Madison, “the most important and fundamental question” he ever addressed was the meaning of and relation between the general welfare clause and the enumeration of particular powers. This question is the most “fundamental” because the answer determines the very “idea” or “nature” of the U.S. Constitution. Commentators virtually agree on the answer Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere “synonym” for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content. From this answer, it follows that the primary meaning of the national dimension of the federal Constitution is limited government, understood as a government with a limited number of powers or means. The thesis of this essay, however, is that, contrary to the commentators’ claims, Madison argued that the clause was a substantive grant of power for the generally stated end and that the primary purpose of the ensuing enumeration was to define more particularly the ends alluded to by the phrase “general welfare.” Hence, the meaning of the general constitutional government in the American federal system is a government oriented to a limited number of limited ends.

    All quote__Link to follow

  • Bill Hedges
  • Path

    Quit putting words in my mouth I’m not anti-profit or capitalist. I’m just not naive to think the invisible hand always provides the best outcomes. Like you sad the government has to be a referee. If you don’t believe me look at the recent financial meltdown. All those banks were happily making money over their heads until the deck of cards fell. Then all those ‘capitalist’ left with their golden parachutes and left us with the mess to clean up. They don’t care about you or me or your loved ones. Human life is not a commodity that can be bought or sold

    Do you seriously think a profit driven system will provide the best care to an 80 year old whose retirement savings ran out long ago because of an unexpected illness?

  • Path

    Bill look up what Alexander Hamilton thought on the issue. Then start reading some actual court rulings

  • “All those banks were happily making money over their heads until the deck of cards fell. Then all those ‘capitalist’ left with their golden parachutes and left us with the mess to clean up.”

    Way to ignore Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac’s role in the mortgage meltdown. I don’t know if you’re aware but they were government entities forced to make bad loans to people they shouldn’t have. Once again, that wasn’t a meltdown of capitalism, it was a meltdown of government regulation and abuse of a system for political gain. Capitalism wasn’t being followed which is why the banks were forced to make bad loans they never would have made without government regulation and incompetent politicians like Barney Frank.

    “Do you seriously think a profit driven system will provide the best care to an 80 year old whose retirement savings ran out long ago because of an unexpected illness?”

    Hmmm… let me think… Well since you admitted that you think she should die under a government care-rationing system, then yes, I am certain that a system in which a person has a choice as to whether they want to try and live is a better system than your euthanasia system.

    So you’re just anti-capitalist and anti-profit in the area of health care then? It seems to me you just like to pick and choose who can make a profit and who can’t. What field do you work in? Are you exploiting people for profit? Perhaps your salary should be capped because I think it’s immoral for you to make a profit in your industry.

    Furthermore, are you in favor of capping doctor salaries because they’re making evil profits? If so, you’re anti-capitalist and anti-profit and you’re right in line with Obama federal-controlled health care.

    Again, referee doesn’t mean “player”, it means they enforce the rules. They do not stop a good team from scoring and they don’t stop a bad team from losing, they just enforce the rules of the game. They don’t force each team to have the same score at the end of the day like a socialized system.

    Please, just admit it already so we can move on, you’re anti-capitalist and anti-profit in industries you think should be socialized.

  • Bill Hedges

    “If you don’t believe me look at the recent financial meltdown. All those banks were happily making money over their heads until the deck of cards fell”

    Hold your horses__Democrats required bad loans to be made. Required and funded to make F/F to buy such loans from others as well. Good ole Bill signed a great law that got it rolling good. Financed it big too

  • Bill Hedges

    Path May 13th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
    “Bill look up what Alexander Hamilton thought on the issue. Then start reading some actual court rulings”

    I am certly willing to read your comment siting sources on this. Always willing ro learn

  • JD

    I admit that I am pro-profit and Pro-capitalist but I am not dumb enough to think capitalism solves all our problems. Capitalizing everything is the same as socializing everything.

    Nate, Just admit that you don’t like the poor or the sick and that you don’t want to see them with health insurance or in the hospital. You would rather make money off of them than to help. Admit it.. that is the good team you are rooting for.

  • Bill Hedges

    “Do you seriously think a profit driven system will provide the best care to an 80 year old whose retirement savings ran out long ago because of an unexpected illness?”

    I believe more a insurance company will follow the rule of the contract than government who provides no contract.

  • Bill Hedges

    jd

    “Nate, Just admit that you don’t like the poor or the sick and that you don’t want to see them with health insurance or in the hospital. You would rather make money off of them than to help. Admit it.. that is the good team you are rooting for.”

    I got lucky today and ran over 5 children.

    I admit only LIBERALS care

  • Bill Hedges

    Examples of real life social health care shows how they care for sick. Try reading links provided. Or read your choice

    Of course, Obama plan is different. Of course. What a come back. Just no examples of how it is.

    Links included show some of what is going on now to devolpe plan by Democrats.

  • D.D.Mao

    As long as the American Liberal Left base their logic on “Occams Razor Principle” there is no need to continue wasting our time posting links etc.

  • Bill Hedges

    path must be gone doing some work on the job. He’ll be back to answer I am sure.

  • D.D.Mao

    An interesting article entitled”Government Run Health Care A Tough Sell To Most Americans” can be found at:

    http://www.ibdeditorials.com/polls.aspx?id=323999200923941#polla

  • Bill Hedges

    Basic LIBERAL answer here seem to be Obama way if different and will be better. I have yet to see anything he has done better. Except out debt all Presidents.

    How come your links cleared so quickly. Mine yesterday took over 6 hours to clear. Not clearing until like 2 p.m.

  • “Nate, Just admit that you don’t like the poor or the sick and that you don’t want to see them with health insurance or in the hospital.”

    Um, where are the poor and sick right now who don’t have access to health care?

    You walk into an emergency room and you’ll be treated, whether you can pay or not. It happens everyday. Just ask the illegal aliens who use emergency rooms and never pay. Also, walk into a free clinic and you’ll be treated whether you can pay or not. The notion that a lack of health insurance equals a total lack of care is bogus, and you know it!

    Having health “insurance” is not the same thing as having access to health “care,” you see?

    We personally don’t have health insurance yet, for some unknown reason, we have health care, how can that possibly be?

    “I admit that I am pro-profit and Pro-capitalist but I am not dumb enough to think capitalism solves all our problems.”

    No, just dumb enough to believe Obama will solve your problems. The same bureaucratic geniuses who are running Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into the ground will be running your health care. Now who’s dumb?

    I’ll take my chances without Obamacare, thanks! I have enough evidence from how badly the government runs every other social program into the ground worse than you can imagine that I don’t need to try it.

  • Bill Hedges

    Conservative Gal

    Before retiring, I had a temporary job working at a hospital. There was a fellow employee bragging about claiming children on taxes she did not have. She also did not get avaliable health insurances. She bragged that hospital would have to take care of her if she or her family got sick.

    I read in a link that a person must (maybe)have insurance just as driver must have insurance. Yeah right !! Am sure majority of illegals will pay for insurance. Yeah right..

  • Path

    “path must be gone doing some work on the job. He’ll be back to answer I am sure.”

    No I just went out to socialize with the girls. I actually have a life.

    “banks were forced to make bad loans”
    They all seemed happy when they were making record profits. Where are all the lawsuits? Again i’ll ask, How did Frank solely bring down our financial system while being in the minority party? What did the Republicans do when they had power for 6 years in Congress and the presidency for 8??

    How is a profit driven system “patient centric” like you claimed to want. If your not profitable they will drop you no questions asked.

    “What field do you work in?”
    I graduated with business management and management of information systems. I’m starting the army in the end of the summer. So no i’m not anti-capitalist or anti-profit. I’m just not naive to think it always brings out the best results. Ever hear of externalities before?

    “You walk into an emergency room and you’ll be treated”

    Have you ever been forced into the position? I have a good friend who has something wrong with her. Her parents don’t have much and can’t afford to have her under their insurance. Every month or two she has an attack which requires her to be hospitalized. Doctors don’t know whats wrong with her. They think maybe crones but are completely lost. She can’t afford the more advanced tests so she can only go to the hospital when she’s in severe pain. And its still not cheap, you still get a bill for emergency room visits. There has to be a better way.

    “I’ll take my chances without Obamacare”
    No one will force you. If your healthy enough and can afford private insurance go for it.

    I still haven’t heard any conservative ideas for lowering the cost of healthcare. Or do you think its Ok to be paying 17% of GDP? If you want to lower the deficit this is the place you have to start. And i’m sure you’ll say the 2 trillion obama go the healthcare industries to cut is just chump change right?

  • Bill Hedges

    path ?

    “No I just went out to socialize with the girls. I actually have a life.”

    Got for you. I have no respect for those who use computer for personal use during working hours.

    “They all seemed happy when they were making record profits. Where are all the lawsuits? Again i’ll ask, How did Frank solely bring down our financial system while being in the minority party? What did the Republicans do when they had power for 6 years in Congress and the presidency for 8??”

    I have a life too. Tiring repeating myself all the time. And for your benefit ? Ah, check Archives …

    ” Her parents don’t have much and can’t afford to have her under their insurance”

    People make their choices and must live with them

    ” And its still not cheap, you still get a bill for emergency room visits. There has to be a better way”

    How unusual, you must pay for thing

    ““I’ll take my chances without Obamacare”
    No one will force you. If your healthy enough and can afford private insurance go for it.”

    You may like one idea Democrats are discussing. All must have health care insurance. There is talk of largest middle class tax hike in history. Oh, must be wrong. Obama has been keeping his word

    “I still haven’t heard any conservative ideas for lowering the cost of health care. Or do you think its OK to be paying 17% of GDP? If you want to lower the deficit this is the place you have to start. And i’m sure you’ll say the 2 trillion obama go the healthcare industries to cut is just chump change right?”

    You haven’t been listening. Turn your ears on..For sure you have not given working example of good social health care. Only hear the great one will…will…will. No word yet…yet. The world hasn’t. Obama te Messiha..HE can..SURE
    …..

    I am still waiting for 5 days to check bills before he signs. Or just let Congress read a bill and time to study before signing. Or where are terorist going to be released. How mush money are we going to give them.

    Maybe Obama will put his hand over health care bill he writes and tells Congress to sign. How Obama..

  • Path

    “Tiring repeating myself all the time.”
    And I’m tired of listening to your lame excuses. Every time I ask you both just throw a hissy fit

    “People make their choices and must live with them”
    How is what her parents choose her fault? She’s working her way through college with two jobs just barely making it by. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a trust fund or rich parents.

    “How unusual, you must pay for thing(s)”
    I’m not arguing that she shouldn’t pay. It just shouldn’t bankrupt a person. We have the highest costs in the industrialized world.

    ” one idea Democrats are discussing”
    The US government is made up of 539 elected people. They don’t all have the same agendas.

    Here is Obama’s plan from the white house website:
    “The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:
    Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
    Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
    Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
    Invest in prevention and wellness
    Improve patient safety and quality of care
    Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
    Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
    End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions”

    The horror…

  • “you still get a bill for emergency room visits. There has to be a better way.”

    There has to be a better way than paying for your own health care? What way would that be, to make me an other taxpayers pay for your health care? Maybe the better way lies in free market principles to drive down the cost by removing federal regulations that limit access to affordable health insurance.

    Free market capitalist ideas to reduce health care costs:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21944.html
    http://www.hoover.org/pubaffairs/dailyreport/archive/9828812.html
    http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/bg2267.cfm
    http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/sr0027.cfm
    http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4931
    http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=3108
    http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/10/22/affordable_health_care
    http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2007/09/04/no_health_care?page=full&comments=true
    http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2003/05/06/universal_health_care

    That was after 5 mins of searching. Those all contain ideas and plans to utilize a free market system in health care which will lower costs better than Obama could ever dream.

    Path, answer me this. How can “free government health care” be considered lowering the cost? Is it not just subsidizing the cost? It’s not actually lowering anything, it’s just using taxpayer money to pay for it instead of solving the problem.

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    hissy fit
    Noun
    informal a childish temper tantrum

    Point my ” ” that shows hissy fit…

    “How is what her parents choose her fault? She’s working her way through college with two jobs just barely making it by. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a trust fund or rich parents.”

    May I quote you__

    “. Her parents don’t have much and can’t afford to have her under their insurance”

    “” one idea Democrats are discussing”
    The US government is made up of 539 elected people. They don’t all have the same agendas”

    Well, I was referring to what a Democrat said. Is why I said “”one idea Democrats. And not say most or some or all.
    ….
    “Here is Obama’s plan from the white house website:
    “The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:
    Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
    Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
    Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
    Invest in prevention and wellness
    Improve patient safety and quality of care
    Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
    Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
    End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions””
    ……..
    WHAT YOU GAVE AS PLAN IS REALLY HIS IDEA FOR A PLAN
    ……..
    Plan

    1: a drawing or diagram drawn on a plane: as a: a top or horizontal view of an object b: a large-scale map of a small area
    2 a: a method for achieving an end b: an often customary method of doing something : procedure c: a detailed formulation of a program of action d: goal, aim
    3: an orderly arrangement of parts of an overall design or objective
    4: a detailed program (as for payment or the provision of some service) <pension

    idea

    1 a: a transcendent entity that is a real pattern of which existing things are imperfect representations b: a standard of perfection : ideal c: a plan for action : design
    2archaic : a visible representation of a conception : a replica of a pattern
    3 aobsolete : an image recalled by memory b: an indefinite or unformed conception c: an entity (as a thought, concept, sensation, or image) actually or potentially present to consciousness
    4: a formulated thought or opinion
    5: whatever is known or supposed about something
    6: the central meaning or chief end of a particular action or situation
    7Christian Science : an image in Mind

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    Nate wrote_”How can “free government health care” be considered lowering the cost? Is it not just subsidizing the cost? It’s not actually lowering anything, it’s just using taxpayer money to pay for it instead of solving the problem”

    Governmeent lowers standard of health care. Refusal of some care.Does not run any social program well. Social security is $11.9 trillion in debt.

    Name a Country that has a good working social health care program

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    Since I wonder if you will read Nate’s links,I will quote from his first link.

    “First, to ensure that every American has access to health care, we must reform the tax code so it makes financial sense for everyone to have coverage. Measures such as tax equity for the purchase of care, active pooling mechanisms to increase purchasing power and focused use of tax deductions and credits will allow all to obtain coverage that meets their needs. Providing proper incentives, we can achieve universal access to coverage without one-size-fits-all government mandates.”

    “Secondly, we must return purchasing power to patients. Today, most Americans receive coverage through their employer or the government. As a result, coverage is too often designed to meet the needs of a third party, not the patient. The remedy is a structure that gives patients full ownership of their coverage. This will make insurers truly accountable to patients, reduce gaps in coverage resulting from job loss and provide patients greater choice and flexibility. Added benefits will be lower costs and the innovation essential for 21st-century health care.”

    “We stand at a crossroads in American health care. One direction leads to more government interference in personal decisions and, eventually, health care rationing. The other direction will ensure coverage, empower patients, foster innovation of new treatments and coverage options and provide the highest quality care.”

    “The decision we make will reverberate far into the future, and the choice preferred by the American people is obvious. The question is: Will Washington listen?”

    “Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) is the chairman of the Republican Study Committee. Before coming to Congress, he practiced orthopedic surgery for two decades.”

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    I musst out something to you–Quote, not imply

    “Here is Obama’s plan from the white house website:
    “The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should”

    You call it a plan

    The “Title”does not say “plan”. Says_ “Reform should”. IDEAS

  • Path

    “There has to be a better way than paying for your own health care? What way would that be, to make me an other taxpayers pay for your health care? Maybe the better way lies in free market principles to drive down the cost by removing federal regulations that limit access to affordable health insurance.”

    She was told it would be around $30,000 without insurance. I’m saying its over inflated prices. And now that she has a pre existing condition what insurance company would want her? Should she just suffer till she dies and early death?

    “free government health care”
    Who said it was going to be free. I’m just saying affordable. You shouldn’t have to declare bankruptcy for an illness. I read a few of those links and some of the main points are the same Obama has made in the past also. Mainly getting employers out of the game by changing the tax code. And pooling of costs in order to increase purchasing power. Isn’t it funny how the healthcare industry suddenly cut 2 trillion in costs just because they were scared of change It makes you wonder what else the charge that’s over inflated.

    Bill I don’t even know where to start with you.

    How about you explain to me how Frank could cause this whole mess. Every time you change the subject.

    And how is it her fault her parents aren’t rich and can’t take care of her? Is it her fault she got sick?

    “Governmeent lowers standard of health care. Refusal of some care.”

    Insurance companies do the same. Or do you think a insurance company would let my friend get insurance knowing her problems just out of the kindness of their hearts? Do you think you get the same standard of healthcare in an emergency room without insurance? They’ll just do the bare minimum.

    Then you get into a hissy fit over the definition of plan and idea. Remember a president can’t make laws he can only give his ideas. You’re the ones labeling this “Obamacare”

  • Bill Hedges

    “She was told it would be around $30,000 without insurance. I’m saying its over inflated prices. And now that she has a pre existing condition what insurance company would want her? Should she just suffer till she dies and early death”

    I have had insurance all my liife. Her parents choice not to put her on their insurance. She choice not to have insuance. She took the risk, played the odds, and lost.

    “Who said it was going to be free. I’m just saying affordable. You shouldn’t have to declare bankruptcy for an illness. I read a few of those links and some of the main points are the same Obama has made in the past also. Mainly getting employers out of the game by changing the tax code. And pooling of costs in order to increase purchasing power. Isn’t it funny how the healthcare industry suddenly cut 2 trillion in costs just because they were scared of change It makes you wonder what else the charge that’s over inflated.”

    You have not read all my post. One talks of larges tax increase in history for middle class to pay for health care.

    Cuts in care might cause your friend to get no care. Of course I don’t know what she has or plan that will be adoped. If cancer, good chance of limited health care depending on any factors. That’s one way they plan on saving money

    “Insurance companies do the same. Or do you think a insurance company would let my friend get insurance knowing her problems just out of the kindness of their hearts?”

    With private insurance you have contract that dictacts terms of agreement. I’ve said this before.

    ” Do you think you get the same standard of healthcare in an emergency room without insurance? They’ll just do the bare minimum”

    Of course, that is why you buy insurance

    “hissy fit ”

    Show my quote that shows that

  • Path

    “She choice not to have insuance. She took the risk, played the odds, and lost.”

    She didn’t choose anything. She CAN’T get insurance like you or me. She first got sick at 17. A minor can’t get insurance by themselves. Now that she is in her 20’s she has a “pre-existing” condition and no insurance company will take her

    “With private insurance you have contract that dictacts terms of agreement.”

    They won’t sign a contract with someone they know will cost too much.

    “hissy fit
    Show my quote that shows that”

    The “Title”does not say “plan”. Says_ “Reform should”. IDEAS
    You’re arguing over semantics instead of the main point. That’s childish.

  • Bill Hedges

    “She didn’t choose anything. She CAN’T get insurance like you or me. She first got sick at 17. A minor can’t get insurance by themselves. Now that she is in her 20’s she has a “pre-existing” condition and no insurance company will take her”

    “They won’t sign a contract with someone they know will cost too much.”

    I said..

    “Her parents choice not to put her on their insurance.”

  • Bill Hedges

    “The “Title”does not say “plan”. Says_ “Reform should”. IDEAS
    You’re arguing over semantics instead of the main point. That’s childish.”

    NO..Point is Obama only has ideas and Republican have plans to accomplish lower health care without cutting health care

  • Path

    “I said..

    “Her parents choice not to put her on their insurance.”

    And thats her fault how? Not everyone has rich or smart parents

  • Bill Hedges

    “I said” is wrong.. Should be “you said”

  • Path

    Are you sure your not drunk? Can’t you see the quotes? Thats what YOU said. I was responding.

    “NO..Point is Obama only has ideas and Republican have plans to accomplish lower health care without cutting health care”

    Obama can’t write laws anymore. He is the president. Obama can ONLY present ideas. It is up to congress to write the laws. Did you fail high school government? In all those links nate posted I didn’t see any proposed legislation. Just a bunch of ideas

  • Bill Hedges

    I said

    Should be “you said”

    you agreed

    “Thats what YOU said.”

  • Path

    See this is a hissy fit. You are arguing about a set of quotes instead of the main point.

    How about this:

    “I (Bill Hedges) said..”

    “Her parents choice not to put her on their insurance.”

    And thats her fault how? Not everyone has rich or smart parents

  • Bill Hedges

    Just proving my point

  • Path

    I quoted your comment from May 15th, 2009 at 2:55 am

  • Bill Hedges

    Should be

    You, Bill Hedges

  • Path

    No that’s not how a quote works. If the quoter wishes to identify the pronoun they put it in parenthesis

  • Bill Hedges

    Thanks for proving my point to Nate. Along with your foul lanuage. Your grammar is real bad too

  • Path

    hahaha

    ” Along with your foul lanuage. Your grammar is real bad too”

    You don’t see anything wrong with that?

    it should be:

    Along with your foul language, your grammar is real bad too.

  • Bill Hedges

    Krrp it up…Your doing great

  • Path

    So are you just going to be an ass for the rest of the night or are you going to debate healthcare in this country?

  • Bill Hedges

    urinr dduty it again,,,tool langange

  • Path

    ???

  • Bill Hedges

    The great thing about written words, someone can follow what occurred tonight

  • Bill Hedges

    Path sayd

    “Obama can’t write laws anymore. He is the president. Obama can ONLY present ideas. It is up to congress to write the laws. Did you fail high school government? In all those links nate posted I didn’t see any proposed legislation. Just a bunch of ideas ”

    WRONG..WRONG…WRONG

    Obama can’t write laws. He can write bills…

    You see, Congress must pass bills, then bill goes to Obama. If Obama signs, it becomes LAW.

    You’re all mixed up..

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    ” In all those links nate posted I didn’t see any proposed legislation. Just a bunch of ideas ”

    Wrong,wrong,,wrong

    Obama plan, as you can it were just idees.

    The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:
    Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
    Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
    Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
    Invest in prevention and wellness
    Improve patient safety and quality of care
    Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
    Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
    End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions”

    Ideas of what he wants in bill. No plan to impliment them.

    In Nates first link, a plan to impliment exist.
    …..

    Bill Hedges May 14th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
    Path ?

    Since I wonder if you will read Nate’s links,I will pull out the plan from quote from his first link.

    1. Bill Hedges May 14th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
    Path ?

    Since I wonder if you will read Nate’s links,I will quote from his first link.

    1. reform the tax code so it makes financial sense for everyone to have coverage.
    2. Measures such as tax equity for the purchase of care, 3.active pooling mechanisms to increase purchasing power 4.focused use of tax deductions and credits will allow all to obtain coverage that meets their needs. 5. Providing proper incentives, we can achieve universal access to coverage without one-size-fits-all government mandates.”

    Instead of mere ideas, Obama’s ideas , Republican plan shows how to accoplish the task.
    …..

    We were talking about plans. Now you throw in “proposed
    lestislation” out of the blue. It is far from that stage
    …..

    By the way, anyone can write a bill. You can. I can. Even President Obama. However, a member of Congress must submit it

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    In same paragraph you ask if I failed “high school goverment” you say “up to congress to write the laws”.
    That is not correct. It is a bill until President signs, then it becomes a law.

    Who failed high school government ?

    “Obama can’t write laws anymore. He is the president. Obama can ONLY present ideas. It is up to congress to write the laws. Did you fail high school government?”

  • JD

    Path…

    I just wanted to let you in on a little secret about this site. It will save you from alot of fustration…

    Be selective with Bill. You don’t have to reply to everything he says…In fact, I have found that the majority of what he says does not require any energy for a response. Just ignore and move on.

  • Path

    “That is not correct. It is a bill until President signs, then it becomes a law.”

    Your point is? He still didn’t write it

  • Bill Hedges

    Path ?

    You are wrong

  • Path

    No I am not. The president signs a bill and then it becomes law. But the president didn’t write any part of it. Didn’t you watch school house rock?

  • Bill Hedges

    Bill Hedges May 15th, 2009 at 7:16 am
    Path ?

    “In same paragraph you ask if I failed “high school goverment” you say “up to congress to write the laws”.
    That is not correct. It is a bill until President signs, then it becomes a law.”

    “Who failed high school government ?”

    “By the way, anyone can write a bill. You can. I can. Even President Obama. However, a member of Congress must submit ”

    I have to repeat, repeat, repeat..Plus you do not know basic stuff. Law and bill

    You are the horse who will not drink. A obamaite

    jd

    Of course you don’t respond to me. When you write something of substance, I will attack eack point. You have no answers.You fade away in shame

  • Bill Hedges

    Here is one reason I figure you were high last night,when you wrote

    “I (Bill Hedges) said..”

    “Her parents choice not to put her on their insurance.”
    …..
    It appears foul lanuage is acceptable on this site. Is sad. It only leads to many folowing suite. Then we have a housefull of ….

    Cussing eachother out. How wonderfull

  • Path

    Thats a quote from you Bill at 2:55 am and at 1:27 am. I was simply asking why she should be punished for not having the best parents. If anyone was drunk last night it was you.

  • Lost in Peoria, Arizona.