Video: Final Presidential Debate from Hofstra University

Here is the entire, unedited debate video from the final presidential debate of the 2008 election season between Barack Obama and John McCain. The debate was moderated by Bob Schieffer from CBS News and took place at Hoftsra University in Hempsted, New York on Long Island. The debate aired on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008.

Watch the full 90 minute video via MSNBC:

Full version from YouTube coming soon..

  • Nonya

    , if you read my 1st post, it said “…I’m calling you a racist on various posts”. I know the word homeboy is used by Latinos, Whites, whoever…but does your 11 yr old uses the terms “bangin hos, n bling blings”…Eric seems to only be able to prove his points using “black slangs”…oh and I’m not surprised you missed his ““Why you isolated it to minorities is questionable though.”

    because the inner cities, heavily minority populated is where these failing schools come from. saying my answer is questionable is the typical liberal response and it completely ignores the real base of the issue. ignoring the problem with pc answers has moved this country in the completely wrong direction and has never solved any problems. i guess you cant understand that seeing as you are not from America. does that make me a racist? i dont think so, i think it makes me a realist.” So I guess it is the minorities fault that the education system stinks right? And my next post said, “‘if’ you’re not a racist well choose your wording carefully cause you sound racist”…but anhwho, I guess according to Erci, “liberals are fools” and ONLY Republicans are smart…I mean after all THE MINORITIES ARE IDIOTS, right Eric?

  • EricF

    Nonya

    “So I guess it is the minorities fault that the education system stinks right?”

    why do you think the education system stinks? i dont think it does. please tell me what you base this on.

    “liberals are fools” and ONLY Republicans are smart…I mean after all THE MINORITIES ARE IDIOTS, right Eric?

    not all minorities are liberals. why would you think they are? i think liberals have convinced a large part of the black population that republicans are all evil racist or something but we know thats not true and we also know that liberals use this strategy for political gain.

    Nonya i think you need to open your mind.

    http://www.nbra.info/

  • Nonya

    gee Eric, thanks lol. Seriously I don’t think republicans are evil lol. I was just going off by your statements lol. and yes, the system stinks. When your youth can’t attain school without the fear of debt, it stinks. but thanks for the link though lol, I’m sure it’ll show me the liberals true colors 🙂

  • Jayne

    So many goods points for both sides of the fence. Several have made points regarding the cost of health care & the lack of education. My question is in your opinion, what is the reason for your high cost of health care? And why is the education lacking in your opinion?

  • Dreadsen

    Nonya

    Well when people go out of their way to constantly blame minorities and blacks for something that is a bi partisan political error what would you expect them to think?

    when someone completely attacks one group then claim ” oh i just trying to wake you up to what the liberals are doing”

    It gives you a real understanding why Malcom X taught people not to trust the government at all.

    I guess anyone wouldn’t be surprised looking at some of the language from certain individuals on here from various threads and posts on here that a particular political party is stereotyping a group as bad.

    Talk radio isn’t helping either. Take ANY of the right wing talk radio guys and type, “racist”, after their name in a search engine and look at the results. Then take liberal talk radio name and do the same.

  • Nonya

    I agree. I’ve seen a couple of posts and said nothing because everyone has the right to their opinion. But when you go as far to say “because the inner cities, heavily minority populated is where these failing schools come from. saying my answer is questionable is the typical liberal response and it completely ignores the real base of the issue” an find nothing wrong with it is beyond me. I had to respond but that was my last waste of energy on this. You’re right Dreasen, ignoring is best 🙂

  • EricF

    “I had to respond but that was my last waste of energy on this. You’re right Dreasen, ignoring is best”

    ignorance is bliss

  • Nonya

    of course Eric you’ve proven that over and over 🙂

  • Dale

    Wow how lively!

    EricF, your education system is among the least effective in the developed world, that’s fact. Look at the HDI.

    lol Dale anything to try to make a point. truely pathetic. you seem to forget that alot of people work part time or barely work at all. most importantly however is…

    Are Republicans actually capable of having a discussion without personal attacks? That is by far the weakest form of argument. Of course some people don’t work, that doesn’t mean it’s not significant that a McDonalds worker in Australia makes more than half your country. What was the point of your post anyway? Obviously there’s a difference between gross and actual salary, everybody knows that, what kind of point is that??

    I don’t know what PWNED means, but good luck with that.

    Gun ownership is a big part of your culture, and the fear associated with the connection to guns is probably the biggest part of the problem. Every person who refuted my post cited fears as their primary motivator for gun ownership. Fear is NOT a good motivator for a civil society on any issue, least of all guns!

    Ironman, comparing Sunni and democrats, that’s just silly and irresponsibly alarmist. There’s a big different between the developmental level of most middle eastern countries and the US. Jennifer if your country resorts to barbarism, guns will be the least of your problems.

    Now EricF, Ironman, Dreadsen et al. here’s your data. After our first major gun shooting in generations, our government implemented massive gun control. Many many people cited the same fears that all of you have cited, but they went ahead anyway. People were scared Indonesia wanted to take us over, government wanted to control us etc., there were many, many more. It was alarmist propaganda and at the time I bought into it (I was only about 16 or 17 at the time). My fears were irrational and wrong, and I’m sorry to say, so are yours. Here’s a reference showing the results: Gun deaths in rapid decline since buyback.

    Gun deaths took an instant drop, and continued to decline.

    Dreadsen your assertion that Criminals here will ALWAYS get a gun I’m sorry to say is a misunderstanding of both the criminal mind and basic economic principles. If you reduce the supply of guns, you reduce the amount of guns, of course. Reducing supply makes getting a gun harder, and makes the black market cost higher, which will make it more prohibitive for many (probably most) criminals. Also, the “black market” is not something most petty criminals, the kind that rob houses and steal cars have access to.

    More evidence from your own country: Gun ownership correlates to gun deaths. The title says it all.

    Ironman, Obama did refute the statements, if you want to get petty, why didn’t McCain refute Palin saying “he pals around with terrorists”. Anybody want to claim that wasn’t out of line? You must have known that was coming, this exact exchange was in the damn debate.

    The biggest issue I see with most of the posts that disagree with my views is that just about every one cites fears as motivators. Fear is a great motivator if you want to control others, but a terrible way to make decisions, ask any poker player.

    I’ve analysed many policies and there is nothing in them that hasn’t been tried in other countries. You can research any policy and find out how it will probably effect you by looking at the world around you.

    Dreadsen, aside from gun control which we can agree to disagree about, I really respect your desire for independent thought and I’d be happy to help you with you post. I’d love to see Babs’ input as a small business owner. I’d love to see how the tax proposals would actually effect her business in real, tangible terms.

    I’d also like to reissue the challenge that nobody has yet had the guts to attempt. It’s looking more and more like no one can take it, but if you can’t take this challenge, your tax arguments must all be wrong.

    All arguments posted here, and McCain’s too that argue lower taxes on the rich can also apply to not taxing the rich at all. If taxing the rich and so bad and so economically unsound, why tax them at all?

    I look forward to somebody, hopefully, finally accepting the challenge… please?

  • Jennifer

    So Dresden, basically we can’t make decisions based on fear? So I fear that I might get in a car accident so I put on my seat belt. Is that wrong? It is a fact that people break into homes. This isn’t the elusive weapons of mass destruction. It happens and I have not just a right, but an inalienable right to protect my life, period.

    As for guns, legally reducing the supply is not the answer. There is always a person motivated by greed (not requiring massive amounts of incentive either) to turn a blind eye or help facilitate obtaining arms. When it comes to the black market…if there is a will, there is a way. And do you honestly think that petty criminals can’t figure out how to tap into that black market? It may reduce some of the violent crime, but not enough to convince me that I will never be attacked or have my home broken into.

  • Jayne

    Dale —

    Not quite sure I understand what your question is…please re-iterate………

    I’d also like to reissue the challenge that nobody has yet had the guts to attempt. It’s looking more and more like no one can take it, but if you can’t take this challenge, your tax arguments must all be wrong.

    All arguments posted here, and McCain’s too that argue lower taxes on the rich can also apply to not taxing the rich at all. If taxing the rich and so bad and so economically unsound, why tax them at all?

    I look forward to somebody, hopefully, finally accepting the challenge… please?

  • Babs

    Jayne, I’m late into the argument, but was this your challenge?

    “My question is in your opinion, what is the reason for your high cost of health care? And why is the education lacking in your opinion?”

    If so, I’ll be glad to take it.

    The high cost of health care – and it wasn’t long ago I’ve said this here – is due to a domino effect. At the bottom, consumers can’t afford the high cost of health insurance premiums. The premiums are out of line because of the health care system’s monoply on the exhorbitant amounts they are able to charge us and our insurance carriers for health care. The drug companies are guilty of the same. When we are able to create some competition both in the health care field, and in the insurance field, we will be able to knock down that monopoly because insurance companies and health care providers will be forced to compete for consumers business. More clinics is a good start – not the solution, but a start. Recently I had occasion to visit a pilot clinic that is run by the major hospital in the area. For 2 minutes with a physician who knew why I was there because I told them, I paid $142 essentially for a prescription for antibiotics that they knew beforehand I was coming for. It was a saturday, and I was referred to the clinic by my dentist. Was that ridiulous? You bet. Can we stop those sort of fees? You bet.

    Education – yes, we have the lowest quality for the most money of anyone in the world. We have handed out teacher certificates as if they were coupons and we’ve gotten exactly what we deserved – a country full of teachers that prove really teaching is above their pay grade. Throwing more money at the system won’t work. McCain is right, we reward good teachers and help bad teachers find another line of work. Obama wants the teachers to tell us if they’re bad or not. Get real. He has this opinion because he’s supported by the teachers union, a composite group of some very good teachers, and a lot of bad teachers. He’s beholden to them. The education system has to be reformed, and that means stepping on the toes of a lot of those union teachers. The alternative is charter schools, and that’s where our children get the best education. Using charter schools in combination with reform of our public schools is the answer.

  • I’m from England and am 17. I think Obama is in many respect the solution to America’s problems. He does harp on about change a lot, but that is exactly what he will bring and that is what America need. Many people have commented on abortion and being god-fearing. This god fearing and even obsession is a big problem with what drives America, I am an Atheist but have no problem with religion, each to his own. But in America too many people mix politics with religion and thus don’t see the more important issues because of their God fearing. It will be a historic and truly brilliant day when Obama is elected, McCain is certainly the least conservative of the republicans, but he will be four more years of Bush.

  • The show was good Mccain looks a
    mess.Obama rulezzz.

  • Antonio

    American folks:

    As that Norwegian Erik guy said. You guys are a strange breed.

    You know what? In general, I feel closer to a socialist system, European/Scandinavian way yet I do value religion, believe in God and am against abortion. All this to say, that I prefer Obama but, after a second thought, after reading all about your fears about taxes and McCain’s policy on them; it’d be better for everyone that McCain wins:

    In the US taxes do not serve health care, education, social development as much as making war all over the place. My silogism:

    McCain = less taxes
    less taxes = less money for war
    McCain wins = less war

    I know it’s fallacious, unfortunately.

    PS. I did find funny the term “Obama-Bin-Biden”

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Osama bin Biden ‘08
    Osama bin Biden ‘12

  • Ironman

    This forum is full of opinion, but it seems few spend enough time researching before flooding pages with factless supositions.

    Dale,

    I will acknowlege that you have your own opinions and obviously perceptions.

    Please explain at what point there was a “comparison” of sunni’s to democrats,..

    They were examples of “factions” presented for your enlightenment since you didnt seem to understand what a “political faction” was.
    You will noticed “religous” preceded “political”
    I reasoned by putting out something perhaps more recognizable to you, your understanding of the second term would become clear.
    Judging from your response I’m still unsure you grasp the meaning, but your probably close enough for a general understanding.

    The point made in the original post was to indicate another aspect of disarming a society. How you view the statement, or what it means to you is geared to your perception.

    Dont try and make it mine!

    You chose to make the comparision between the two examples, rather than the subject matter, and tagged on a label of being “irresponsible” and making “alarmist” statements.

    I can forgive your perception as being misguilded.

    If I followed your lead in this, I would be questioning your intelligence.

    If your going to characterize an entire group of people for what you precieve to be an attack from one,.. you sir are being irresponsible. In addition considering the tone of your response to the “faction” thing I’d dare say your skirting hipocracy.

    Lets all be big boys and girls, and play nice,.. ok?

    “ON GUN CONTROL”

    I’ll preface in that it appears you’ve never spent any amount of time in parts of LA, Oakland, New York, Miami etc.
    I say this because you appear naive in your peception of crimminal behavior in the United States.

    You have asserted that “fear” is the major motivating factor for a refusal to disarm. I will not dispute your statement, but I would guess the word fear might be unduly attached in a lot of cases.

    For the sake of your argument however, lets assume you are correct, that fear itself is the motivating factor.
    It is unrealistic, to expect one not to fear something that should be feared.
    It is also unrealistic to expect one to be unable to defend themselves.

    Now let me give a “comparision”.
    If you live in Alaska, and you want to go to the garbage dump,..you would be smart to be armed. Why?
    Because the bears love that place.
    If your meandering in the wilderness you’d better be armed.
    Is it fear or good sense,.. insert whichever one you want for your argument,.. it makes no difference because being armed would be prudent since there is some thing out there that is likely to attack and kill.
    The Bears in Alaska are not like the ones in the lower 48. They dont fear you.
    Also if you live close enough to them, there is a very real possibility they will break into your home. If you happen to be there at the time and unarmed, the possibility of you becomeing another statistic is astronomicaly higher than if you have the ability to use “deadly force”
    So you have a couple options, you can avoid the bears by staying away from where they are, once again insert fear/good sense as the motive, or you can be prepared to deal with them should they choose to attack.
    If I live in Miami and I dont want to be killed by predatory individuals I have the same choices.

    You made a point earlier that one statistic wasnt a valid point for an argument,.. Since we are discussing two different countries with two different cultures lets address the one that you wish to sell your bill of goods on.

    “AUSTRAILIA”

    In previous postings you agreed 100% that violent crime rises dramaticaly after an armed society is disarmed.

    You went on to say that as the guns are taken out of society less criminals have them,.. and that crimes committed with guns are reduced.

    In addition you made a post that presented 1 statisc showing the decline in gun deaths. Try to remember the issue we are discussing isnt the number of gun deaths,.. but the commiting of violent crime, criminals ability to arm themselves, and taking away an individuals right to protect himself against such.

    Let me show you what information I have found

    http://www.gunsandcrime.org/

    http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi61.html

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304

    Now then would you care to reinterate with a plausible argument?

    I found wealths of information on the subject, and even found error with my belief regarding the ratio of societies that violent crimes actualy decreased after a period of time.

    At this point I would say your agument has been debunked if you cannot produce compelling evidence to the contrary.

    It is noble to aspire for peace,… but an abhoration to victimize society for ones ideals.

    “ON TAXATION”

    Dale said;

    “All arguments posted here, and McCain’s too that argue lower taxes on the rich can also apply to not taxing the rich at all. If taxing the rich and so bad and so economically unsound, why tax them at all?”

    This really makes no sense other than arguing for the sake of argument.

    Are you advocating no tax for the wealthiest?
    or,.
    Are you asking for an explanation as to why lowering taxes on the wealthy is a good Idea?
    Or is there another point that I have missed?

    On a last note,

    “BEING PETTY”

    I am not provoked by adolesent chides.
    My reference was to what I percieved as petty. Originaly refered to as a lack of sportsmanship.
    Which is still unrefuted.

    Just saying “yes he did” is meaningless if you cant provide proof.

    Provide substantial evidence that Obamma openly and publicly refuted the wild acusations about McCain, and I will withdrawl my statement and openly apologize.

  • Jayne

    Babs….got you reply…will post later on that.

    In the mean time, here is a link to both parties views on the FAA and aviation…..this is an important issue that has been on going for awhile. It seems to me either Obama has to experience with this area, is ready to tax the crap out of general aviation or lastly, doesn’t care. I’ll have to say this is another plus for McCain here.

    http://www.aopa.org/feature/election08/?WT.mc_id=081017epilot&WT.mc_sect=tts

  • Ironman, you’re making a comparison between Alaska and Miami on the right to bare arms or not?…LMAO that’s too funny.

  • Ironman

    nzpudding,

    the comparrison was to address the root issues,.. I often head there instead of dancing around a bunch of meaningless BS aimed at drawing attention away from the point.

    If you fail to see the analogy, I could explain.

    The Alaskan wilderness was used because the dangers are present, and undeniable. Also the course of action is undeniable.
    I could use any Big city with an impoverished crime ridden area.
    But since Miami was used lets stay on that.

    Would you dispute that parts of Miami are dangerous?

    Would you dispute there are human “predators” that reside in those areas?

    Would you dispute that many people try and avoid certain parts of Miami because its known to have such individuals?

    The physical location of an individual has nothing to do with the right to protect yourself, and I have a feeling your aware of that.
    Early on in this conversation the difference between being in the city, or being in the country was brought up. My point has illustrated that both have “predators” and the course of action remains constant.

    Hope that clears it up for you. 😉

  • Ironman

    One more thing,..

    Dale,

    you were pwned!!! 🙂

  • Great American Democratic System.I don’t care about who will be the new president ,only enjoy the process of American people’s voting that not exist in China.

  • pig

    chill Ironman, and relax.

    There’s a reason why teasers and pepper sprays are invented.

  • Ironman, I don’t disagree about Alaska, it is a wilderness and people do need to ‘protect’ themselves (not mindlessly hunting wolves from planes though) and also the possibility of Russia invading 😉

    I have nothing against people having guns for hunting or sports, but carrying a gun around for the sake of it because it says you can from a piece of paper over 200 years old isn’t quite right.

    By the way, what does pwned stand for? is it an acronym for something?

  • Jennifer

    Ironman,

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/01/MNFP11HINF.DTL

    ‘Sen. Barack Obama on Monday rejected the comments from a leading Democrat and campaign military adviser who diminished Sen. John McCain’s service as a naval aviator in Vietnam when he declared, “I don’t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.”

    As Obama delivered a speech here on patriotism that tried to defuse attacks on his own background, he responded to the remarks of Wesley Clark, the retired general and onetime Democratic presidential candidate, who suggested on CBS’ “Face the Nation” on Sunday that McCain had not been tested as a wartime commander.

    “For those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country, no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary,” Obama said. “And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign – and that goes for supporters on both sides.”‘

    Now it is not as outrageous as refuting your opponent is a terrorist but correct me if I am wrong, that kind of rhetoric is not being exchanged about McCain to begin with. The seriously dangerous character assassinations are being made against Obama not McCain and I would hope McCain would immediately refute all serious claims, not just a couple. I just think it’s awful that people are making their decisions on who to vote for solely based on an erroneous notation that Obama MAY be a terrorist or MAY have ties with Al Queda. This is not a real contest between opponents capabilities to preside over our nation when people’s fears are being tapped into – and not real fears like people breaking into your home 🙂

    Am I missing something outrageous Obama turned a deaf ear on? I’m living overseas and trying my best to stay in the loop 🙂

    On a side note, I came across this article. I’m not familiar with newsmax.com so not sure about its credibility. If it’s true, I am terrified of McCain as a president! So what do you do when you want to vote Republican but you are mortified by both Republican candidates??? Anyone else having this dilemma?

    ‘McCain’s Out-of-Control Anger’
    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/5/00548.shtml

  • Dale

    Ironman,

    I want to start by saying I’m sorry I said you equated Democrats and Sunni, there’s a lot to read in this thread and I didn’t reads yours properly so I’m sorry. You can attack my intelligence if you want, but I simply misread and I’m sorry.

    Jennifer, the personal attacks and vague associations coming from the Republican camp and surrogates such as Fox News are designed to mislead and invoke anger and fear. It’s one of the major propaganda techniques used by all the major propagandists in history from Stalin and Hitler to Castro, and… George Helbert Walker Bush. I suggest you take a look at Outfoxed, it gives a pretty thorough analysis of the techniques and their application. You can view the interviews from it for free online here.

    It’s interesting that you got that article from newsmaxx, they’re a strong right wing proponent. McCain isn’t very popular with their base though, and given the date published, July 5, 2006, it might indicate the motivation for the article.

    My reference to Obama refuting the statements was straight from the debate, it wasn’t a full retraction true, he did hold to the point that statements like “palling around with terrorists” were out of line, and I must say I agree. He did however say that comparing to a segregationalist was out of line. John Lewis himself came out very soon after and agreed he went too far. I don’t see what more there is to retract unless you think it’s fine to say Obama was palling around with terrorists, which I don’t. Perhaps you do, but don’t hold your breath for a retraction on that one.

    I do think McCain should retract Palin’s statement, and I actually think he would sort of like to, but that would be political suicide and undermine Palin even more than she has already done to herself – that is mere speculation, no need to rebut unless you feel you really need to. What I do know is McCain never would have said that, it’s that kind of character that’s keeping in sort of in the race.

    TAX:

    Your questions about my tax question was right, and exactly my point. The point of the question is to illustrate that the ideal tax rate is somewhere between none and 100%, and nobody has any decent arguments as to where in there it should be. The arguments people are quoting are simply the right wing attacks which nobody using them actually understands properly or else they could answer the question conclusively, and they can’t.

  • Dale

    Ironman,

    On Gun Control:

    I showed the correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths, and that partially disarming a society reduces gun crime. I noticed you didn’t really touch those points. To say I didn’t present a plausible argument is unfair, especially since you ignored the major points of my argument.

    The article you found “Violent Crime in Australia: Interpreting the Trends”, the data was from before the Port Arthur massacre, just before the gun laws were introduced that dropped gun deaths, so really, I think it backs my viewpoint, not yours.

    You said that I said, which I did: “In previous postings you agreed 100% that violent crime rises dramaticaly after an armed society is disarmed..

    That isn’t true in every case, but I’ll take violent crime over gun crime any day of the week, but I’ll touch upon this a little further on.

    You said: Try to remember the issue we are discussing isn’t the number of gun deaths. That isn’t what I was discussing obviously, but we can have a go at that too I guess.

    You said

    “I’ll preface in that it appears you’ve never spent any amount of time in parts of LA, Oakland, New York, Miami etc.”

    Fistly, have you? Perhaps you have, perhaps you havn’t. The bear analogy is great for bears, country people often should have guns for bears, people are not bears, and the fact that you try to relate them is my point about the fear hysteria.

    However you actually showed that Australia has more violent crime than the US. So to try to say I don’t understand violent crime because I havn’t been to the US (which I have actually) is contradictory.

    What I do know is that I’m not actually safer if I own a gun. I’ll refer to Kellerman’s study which concluded, among other things that having a gun in the home made it 2.7 times more likely that a family member would die from a gun death. I will assume you’re familiar with this study. It was refuted reasonably, but not at all conclusively on the pro-gun site you listed here. Their analysis was reasonably fair, but obviously partisan and didn’t actually refute that owning a gun made it more likely a family member would die from gun violence. Removing risk factors helps, of course, that’s true for everything. It never actually showed major flaws in the argument.

    Now you showed after the gun laws violent crime went up in Australia, which is true, it peaked around 2001. What you didn’t show was that all crime went up, mostly due to economic issues stemming from the Asian Economic crisis which had a massive influence on our economy. As everybody knows, and I think you’ll find out again very soon, a poor economy leads to higher crime.

    Violent crime stats in Aus incorporate many factors, for instance: robbery and gun deaths are falling, rape and assault are rising. Assault is the major rising violent crime, and not surprisingly it equates very closely with the rise in alcohol consumption REF. Most violent crime stats are mostly following quite steady trends that were unaffected directly from gun laws, the only stat which was majorly effected was gun deaths, which is the bulk of my point.

    My major point is a simple one, fewer guns = fewer gun deaths. That is not a complicated issue, fewer cars = less driving, fewer terrorists = fewer suicide bombings. I think even Bush supports me on that one.

  • Ironman

    Pig,

    As soon as they develop a TAZER that can fire multiple rounds accurately,in rapid succession, and can pierce several layers of heavy clothing at 20 yrds I’ll consider trading in my revolver.

  • Ironman

    nzpudding,

    So you support the concept that protecting yourself from threats to your life from predators in the wilderness is valid.

    Interesting,…

    you side stepped my questions about Miami, so perhaps you’ll answer this.

    Would you, your wife or children, your loved ones, be any less dead if they were killed by an amoral sociopathic killer instead of a grizzly?

    Before knocking that 200 year old piece of paper you might consider its the foundation that allows the conversation we are having. You arnt going to post your views about the north korean goverment on any website there.

    When considering the right to bear arms, it would be important to understand the full purpose of such.
    It wasnt written by a couple of half wits that thought it would be cool to pack iron.

  • Ironman

    Jennifer,

    I am going to look later today and see if I can verify that article,..
    Thanks for posting, I was unable to find anything so far that had indicated such.

    As far as McCains alleged anger problems,.. at this point I dont know enough to say one way or the other,.. what I do know is,..

    About a year or so ago I was fed up with a left wing spin media that critisized the republican party at every turn,.. and often put half truths,.. or even out right falsifications. ie, ruters and AP photo scandal.

    Some one hooked me up with news max,.. at first I thought right on! but as time passed I realized they are the right wing extreme and conduct some of the same practices.
    I found some very misleading info and ash canned my sub.

  • Jennifer

    Another question for someone out there…

    Can anyone explain the rationale behind the windfall profits tax when it’s pretty much agreed across the board that the US needs to reduce their dependence on foreign oil? So we ask for more production but then tax it more if production goes beyond a certain ‘acceptably profitable’ level??

  • Ironman

    Dale,

    lets start over on the right foot.
    I accept your apology, and there was no attack on your intelligence.
    The inference was made to show how your response seemed negative.
    Even in this aspect your response indicated you felt attacked because of the possibility your intelligence was in question.

    Unlike many who throw the word stupid around at the drop of a hat, I would be hard pressed to ever make such a strong statement about someone.

    I have met people in my life who have had very poor command of the lanuage, couldnt spell for crap and had almost no understanding of sentance structure,.. (which I struggle with at times) but their level of understanding the human condition, was amazing.
    Rest assured I have no judgement on you.

    “ON TAXES”

    I personally dont see any reason to tax anyone at a different rate with the exception of the lower income.
    The goverment needs be accountable and quit useless spending, at the very least, quit stealing from us and giving it to your “buddies”
    We arnt in this mess because the people did something wrong!!

    “ON GUN CONTROL”

    You have made a lot of points and addressed many of the statements I made, To respond to all will take three pages and much more posting of links.

    I’m going to summerize and condense

    1. Yes I’ve been all over the United States and I have seen first hand the worst it has to offer, by appointmet I lived in several of those areas.
    2. Yes American big cities are criminaly different than yours, just a small example,.. drive by shootings have never been common in your country, Organized crime and drug trafficicking are nothing on the scale they are here, and it goes on and on
    3. Common sense tells anyone less guns means less gun deaths. The first and largest drops are accidental shootings and domestic disputes. This means that although the number of deaths related to guns goes down, it doesnt accurately reflect the actual number of violent crimes where a gun was used.
    4,. On possible biased from reporting sources,… I purposly put differing views and added there was much more available in hopes others would pursue it deeper. I read through 20+ reports and concluded there was a small percentage that argued statistics were misleading due to social or economic changes. if you view enough you will see constants and drop in violent crime is not one of them.

    For the last time.
    The issue is not “number of gun deaths” the issue is the right to bear arms,.. and the justifications for doing so.
    Since one of the justifications is self preservation,. Elimination of the need for self preservation is the only arguable solution.
    Since disarming society has proven to be of no effect, if not adverse to reducing the need to protect whats dear,.. the point is again moot.

    If you wish to establish a plausible argument to the issue please confine your argument to such.

  • Ironman

    Has anyone heard something about Iran making statements that they would not hold talks with with America without preconditions?

    It may be a bunch of BS,.. I’m trying to get to the bottom.

    http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8707210851

  • Bill Hedges

    Iron Man- Yes, the leader of Iran said that. Refering to Obama comments.

  • Bill Hedges

    A news media has re-visited Iraq and notice great chances. Iraq police and troupes are doing most of the patrols. Number of American dealth have dopped drastical. Violents way down. The U.N. agreement ends at the end of year. It appears new agreement is near. Role of American troupes soon will be back-up.

  • Dale

    Bill,

    I can’t help but question which news media said that, but if I had to guess I’d say Fox. I noticed you didn’t post a reference, which doesn’t bode well. Fox have been making claims like that ever since Bush declared victory like 6 years ago.

    The reason I say Fox, is because I know you watch Fox, the reason I know that is because you thought the U.N supported the war, when the opposite is true. Anybody who follows politics as much as you yet still thinks that is a Fox viewer, no doubt.

    I would challenge anybody who watches Fox to get a copy of Outfoxed and watch it. It’s important for any Fox viewer who considers themselves the least bit intelligent to at least understand what they’re watching, even if they continue to do so.

    Ironman,

    The Tax issue is a very complicated one, you still disagree which is fine, but I would challenge you to really look at other country’s policies and living standards a little more to get a bit clearer picture, you may just come around yet.

    The right to bear arms is always tough because it’s a very strongly held view in your country. It’s a right sure, technically really “arms” could mean just about anything, including a nuclear weapon. You probably shouldn’t have that right. Moreover, just because you have the right, doesn’t mean you should. You agreed it would reduce accidental deaths around the home and dismissed it because you didn’t classify that as violent crime. We arguing different points, but at least I’m addressing yours. My point is though, if you can reduce gun deaths you should, whether you chose to classify them as violent or not, a death is a death.

    If you wish to establish a plausible argument to the issue please confine your argument to such.

    I did, but we were arguing different points anyway. My point was that less guns means less gun violence. If you have to lose your gun to make a drive by shooter lose theirs, I think that’s a sacrifice you should be willing to make.

    Since disarming society has proven to be of no effect, if not adverse to reducing the need to protect whats dear,.. the point is again moot.

    Disarming a society does reduce gun violence, I showed you that. Gun violence is of course, a significantly bigger issue than assault, or any other type of violent crime. Assault maybe can become the surrogate, but it’s a lesser crime. If somebody is that pissed they’ll probably still have a swing, but I’ll be glad when they don’t get the chance to have a gun instead. And I’ll definitely be glad when I stop hearing about kids accidentally shooting themselves because they found daddy’s gun.

    Peace.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dale– The U.N. approval runs out end of the year

  • Ironman

    Dale,

    I have not refused to acknowelege your argument,.. I addressed it.
    I stated openly that less guns means less gun deaths,.. I agree with your point completely.

    Its just that your point doesnt exacyly have any bearing on the real issue as I see it.

    “personal protection”

    No one who has posted here has disputed that a person has the right to protect themselves their loved ones or their property. That is a constitutional right, and a basic natural instinct.

    Lets say for the sake of your argument that every single gun in the world suddenly vanished,.. except for law enforcement.

    Would violent crime be reduced?,.. NO thats a fact.
    Would people still want to protect themselves?,.. YES thats a fact.

    So what happens now? the same violent crimes are commited with Knives Baseball bats and axes.

    Is society now safer? NO
    Are less people going to die,.. maybe,.. but only because its harder for someone unskilled in combat to kill with a knife as compared to a gun. Accidental shootings would also be non existant.

    Your solution is like cutting down the tree because one of the branches is rubbing against an upstairs window.

    I do however believe 100% that a different system should be in effect for being able to own a firearm.

    We wont let someone on the road without a drivers license because we know the danger,.. what the hell are people thinking letting someone own a weapon with out instruction and a license?
    Before owning a weapon an individual should have to pass a basic but sound 4 week course on how to safely use and store a firearm. At the end of the course, you would be given a state examination just like applying for a license. If you cant pass,.. you must retake the class, (up to 3 times) and try again. If you fail on the third try you must wait 3 years before reapplying.

    Firearms should have a certificate of ownership just like a car,.. if you sell the firearm it can only be to a licensed person or buisness, and you must fill out a sellers report. Anyone purchasing a weapon has 5 days to transfer tittle, weapons sold across state lines would require a federal aproval of the sale.

    Anyone caught buying or selling firearms without a
    certificate of ownership or selling “to” and individual without a license would be charged and serve a mandatory jail sentence on the first offense.
    Possession of a firearm without a certificate of ownership would be punishable with a jail sentence on the first offense.

    Now for as much as I support the right of every American to bear arms,.. I am equally firm that guns are not toys,.. and are to be handled in a resposible matter. They are a means of lethal force and the ownership of one should be taken very seriously.
    If you cant be proven responsible, you have no buisness with one. If you have one and your not supposed to, or your not following the rules regarding them,.. the punishment needs to be a strong deterant.
    If lanuage was submitted to aprove such a notion on a constitutional level, it must include a clause defining an irevocable standard that cannot be amended.
    In other words the the standard must reasonably uphold that all naturalized Americans could reasonable obtain firearms, and that its criteria never be altered, since it could serve political interest. Personal protection is not the only reason we may be armed as citizens.

  • Ironman

    I really need to proof read,..

    That way I could be “reasonably reasonable”

    sheesh! 🙂

  • Keely

    McCain is George Bush all over again.

    Why are we doing this again????

    Honesty people, stop talking about the Bible, it has nothing to do with the law. We are a multicultural and multi religious country and religion should have nothing to do with this.

    I don’t care what the Lord wants us to do, he isn’t here. Obama is going to stop the killing overseas and bring back the priorites of America. We need education. ALSO WHAT THE HELL DID MCCAIN SAY ABOUT PUTTIG TO MUCH EMPHASIS ON WOMENS HEALTH?? Partial Birth Abortion is ALL about a womens health. If a woman is going to die if she gives birth it would be create the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people (Kant) if there was an abortion. I rather have a fetus dead, then a person dead.

    OPEN YOUR EYES. Obama is our future thank god.

  • Jeff

    Dear Peter,
    So you would rather have a president that is only quote “a man of heart and action”
    Then a well educated, Harvard Lab president?
    i guess you could Hoo-rah the whole 4 years of your presidency
    opposed to using your brain.

  • Obama/Biden= all lies

    McCain 2008

  • Sandy

    Wow, what a time waster: the time spent writing this article by the author, my reading it, and especially bothering to respond to it. However, I would like to point out that every group has it’s extremists who can’t contain their anger. Both sides have their constituents who don’t follow the moral and ethical lines of a true multi-party election system. There are probably criminals who would vote for either man, but thank goodness our democratic legal system keeps them from voting.

  • Carolina

    Honestly, McCain left a bitter taste in my mouth and I am a Republican. I am tired of filthy greedy corporate demons robbing me of my money. And Im sorry, but as a famous saying goes, “Anybody who makes more than $250,000 a year to themselves earned in it in someone else’s blood money. WALL STREET, STOP FLEECING AND RIPPING US OFF!

    Enough, we need someone to look out for the little guy now, we have been trampled on long enough! Because of Bush and his ultra-facist policies, the middle cass has been transformed in the working poor, and the working poor into the impoverished.

    Regulation is key! Time to put these white collared criminals behind bars, they get more “get of of jail free” cards than celebrities.

    Do you know what $5000 tax rebate will do to insurance premiums? Insurance companies will just jack up the prices by that much more, I mean why not, they’re getting all of that money anyways if you want to insure your loved ones.

    Do you know what school vouchers would do? Allow all the rich mommies and daddies to drive their rich kids to school in their Cadillac Escalades to the only good rich school an hour away, while the poor parents with no form of transportation will have to send their kids to the underfunded, unreformed local public school because the school bus only goes there!

    Yea, nice job for adding to the “I could really care less about the less fortunate” platform you have been running on. If it wasn’t for us, who would deliver your pizzas, who would wait your tables, who would make your $5 coffee for you? Tough isn’t it? Guess you’ll have to rely on those “illegal immigrants” you hate so much.

    McCain get out of the sack with the CEOs of Wall Street and banks. You’re just making it obvious now. You look angry, desperate, and pathetic. Too bad you have to be rude and constantly cut off your opponent just to make yourself feel better. VOTE HERE! VOTE YOUR ANGRY, STUBBORN, DELUSIONAL OLD MAN FOR PRESIDENT!

    Obama/Biden 2008

  • Tyler Le

    True Obama might win but lets not hope it all. I am a minority, i am a Asian American and if i didn’t remember wrongfully McCain did something for this country. Lets ask ourselves what time had Obama did for this country!. I think we should stop criticizing the Rep. and grow up stop pointing fingers and blame each other Obama is OK but McCain has proven to server for this country so far. And for you hating people out there get a life.

  • Samantha

    In recent readings ( although I’m sure they all lead on false or accurate allegations) I’ve read about both Obama and McCain. I’m a registered democrat because my father, re registered as a democrat. He served 23 years in the United States Navy and the first thing he did coming out was become a democrat. I admit my father was a hard headed Military officer but his main turnoff to McCain believe it or not was that he became a prisoner of War which makes me…a god? Now not that I completely agree with that but I do think that McCain is a lot like our president in office today. He’s been known as hot headed and somewhat hypocritical (once again these are either accurate or false allegations) but I agree with this. It’s easy for men to throw abortion around as murder when you don’t realize that we women would gladly hand over the actual act of birth to you for a couple years. It’s easy to call a woman a killer is she chooses to give up an unborn life. But to be honest it’s a decision that most women have to make ALONE…it’s not everyday that a man steps up to his responsibilities and takes action. Thats not what life is like these days…Palin I though would make a difference for women as VP but on two different conferences she denied being a feminist than praised that she would def. classify herself as that. McCain and Palin are against many forms of insurance for women that need it….mammograms, pregnancy, abortion. I agree that women should have every right to make a choice about their body…if it’s something they are going through alone.

    Obama is for helping people. In a time like now..of depression, paying a little more to help the consumers of your very business back onto their feet, doesn’t sound so bad…..

    I’m up for a change…i feel like we’ll be delt the same hand as we’ve been if McCain is put in the white house

  • Stephanie

    I don’t even know where to begin! Obama clearly has a plan laid out. McCain/Palin clearly don’t. Sure they keep saying that the economy needs to get better & that there need to be changes…we all know THIS, but what is their plan of action to actually DO something solid about it? How are they going to carry out these goals? McCain/Palin keeps saying that we need to “WIN” this war. I would feel victorious if we ended this war a.s.a.p! I believe McCain/Palin are just telling us sweet stories of promise & change, but are not really intending on changing anything. Haven’t we learned anything at all from the Bush administration? Come on people, open your ears & listen, & realize that McCain will only cause more problems for America!

    Someone mentioned earlier about “picking your poison”, I do not agree with everything Obama says, but I agree with him on many more issues than McCain. When I weigh it all out & decide on the pros & cons of each candidate, I must say my scale tips much heavier for Obama. I read somewhere that someone said that it is a “leg up” to get Palin in as VP because she has hardly any foreign policy experience…Are you crazy? Im sorry, but I want someone in office that actually knows what is going on overseas, if Palin is VP it would be like the blind leading the blind!!!! Why have a blind person lead another blind person if there is someone available with site to guide them?

    Most companies when hiring someone for a job will interview people & then decide on who has the best qualifications & attitude for the position (the best fit). Especially if the job position is one of major importance to their company. Do we want a VP with training wheels or do we want a VP that can maneuver the obstacles ahead without hesitation or falling flat on their face?

    Both McCain & Palin are not producing solid answers or solutions for this country. They are wishy-washy & have me worried about what their real agenda is or how they are going to address major issues.

    Palin is a great speaker & fun to watch…but when I go to sleep at night I want a VP who gets the job done, knows what they are talking about, not one that can side-step the issues with a lot of general chatter….being a showman & great speaker is wonderful…for a theater performer. But I want someone who knows what they are doing, esp for an important one like VP.

    I want a President with plans, numbers, & knowledge to lead us, not someone with vague promises of change & no rough draft to present to us. Sure we know that we need change…we all say it, but just who is going to actually make a change? Obama/Biden have done their homework & have real plans to put into action & I believe will. Truth is do we really know what McCain has for a plan…except to keep the war going strong & offshore drilling?

    We need someone who wants to end this war a.s.a.p. Just because Obama is not shouting from the rooftops he wants to “win” the war doesnt mean that he is going to wave a white flag. He will end the war with fewer casualties, but will not let America fall further into the fire either. We don’t need someone for President that is too trigger happy, we need someone who can assess a situation, act on it, & get positive results. Sometimes, one has better luck (results) with a little less force & more brains…outsmarting & knowing your opposition in most situations produces better results than brut force. Lets elect someone that will “think” before they act, but one who will not hesitate to act when a situation arises.

    By the way I am registered as Republican, but will be voting for Obama/Biden this election. I look at the whole picture not what party they are (as my mom does…she will be voting McCain) & is basically just voting for him because she is Republican, not for his views or plan of action.

    I vote for Obama/Biden this Nov. 2008!

  • Stephanie

    One more thing:
    EDUCATION
    Some people have stated that more money towards education would not help much, but that it was the parents to blame. Another thing mentioned was that new books or computers would not help, that the kids will still not become a productive member of the community. & then there was mention that there were no computers 20 years ago & that the children that really wanted to learn would overcome & learn anyway. To these statements I reply :

    1. Yes, the parents play a majority role, however, their education plays a huge role as well. If the children have newer books, have better supplies, & higher paid faculty…they will take more of an interest in learning.

    Lets say that you were a teacher & were offered a job at two different schools…one school will pay a larger salary than the other, it is located in a better area, the benefits are better, and that school is not so understaffed (meaning smaller classrooms & more attention to individual students)- which job would you take? Probably the higher paid, more funded school. Right? Let me also add this, as a school, the school is more likely to offer the higher paying jobs to a teacher that is perhaps more qualified…providing the higher funded schools with better teachers too. With all of these things brought to the table, how is not giving more funding for education not important?

    2. In reference to “not having computers 20 years ago” this is true…however we do have them now & many many jobs & a lot more to come deal heavily with computers & the knowledge of how to use a computer & the internet. So, if a school can not provide computers for the students to learn on & another school has multiple computers… which of the students will be more productive & land a better job? Certainly the student that has had the better education (which requires money to keep up with changing times & tech.) We need to invest more money in education!!!

    Education is the key to our future. Have you ever noticed that people that have a better education fair much better in life & decisions. I had a pretty good education at my high school (it could have been better & could have been worse) but because I had the opportunity to recieve computer knowledge (though it was not a major part of the curriculum) it armed me better for life. I graduated 1 year early from high school too. My mom owns her own bussiness & it was hard at times, (father was not apart of my life) she worked long hours & I am an only child. I pretty much was alone a lot, but because of the teachers I had & the resources available I thrived instead of participating in negative activities. I taught myself to play the piano, I read a lot, I learned to type very well (something that really helped me to get a job at a younger age).

    Bottom line is that it is a good thing to provide more funding for eduction!!