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Here is the entire, unedited debate video from the final presidential debate of the 2008 election season between Barack Obama and John McCain. The debate was moderated by Bob Schieffer from CBS News and took place at Hoftsra University in Hempsted, New York on Long Island. The debate aired on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008.
Watch the full 90 minute video via MSNBC:
Full version from YouTube coming soon..
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Just watched Dick Morris say that he thinks McCain won the debate but Obama might get a one or two point bump in the polls…wtf? What kind of ass-backwards working out is he using?
That said, McCain in a recent rally said he’s exactly where he wants to be in the race…wtf? Trailing Obama by an average of over 7 points I don’t think is a great place to be.
I find that there were many important issues that were not discussed in the debates. All three debates discussed foreign policy and fuel ties and the economy. What about immigration and NAFTA? They should have discussed more issues. Another issue that was lightly touched on but should have more weigh is the issue of the vice president.
These debates are really pointless considering most people have already made up their decision, it just serves to better reinforce option and to keep votes already considered for specific candidates. The bipartisan or undecided number of voters is infinitesimal and therefore to push in the debates to shift these voters to a specific campaign is pointless.
The prediction I did (and many others) happened to be true.
The candidate that didn’t behave respectful, that gossiped, that was vulgar (“Joe the plumber”, “Health of women”, etc) was punished with “unvotes”
Q.E.D.
What happened to border security? The Republicans couldn’t stop talking about it during their primary debates. Wouldn’t that buy some votes?
Republicans probably liked how much McCain was attacking Obama, it looked reasonably effective at the start, but he just started looking angry and maybe a bit desperate. I think he ended poorly. Five Thirty Eight have Obama’s chance of winning at about 95% at the moment so does it matter? I doubt it.
On a different note, I just watched Outfoxed, it’s interesting how much it’s dated considering it’s pretty much common knowledge these days how partisan Fox News is. I think it presented a good explanation of the motivations behind the network, which is what I’ve been saying for a while…
I just concluded watching this. I’m a Canadian..I’m in the military, and many U.S. policies, dictate when, and where I’ll be deployed next. I’ve followed many debates, since Reagan..and I must say…Mr. Pudding above, is correct. I will say this without hesitation…I would support, go forth with, and support Mr. Obama in his aspirations for your country. I find him to be not just charismatic and an enjoyable fellow, but a sensible sould in a world where there is many times, little sense. I hope with all honesty that he usurps Mr. McCain. Bravo Mr. Obama, bravo. Tonight, as on many others, John, I feel, hadn’t a leg to stand on.
To MSNBC, I sincerely appreciate this video of the complete debate, with my deployment schedule and training, I would have had to wait to “read” history, instead of witnessing it..thank you. Job well done.
I cannot believe what some people posted on the comment page during the debates….I have read that some of them think that McCain supporters are racists..or are afraid of change….and I have seen that some of them believe that morals should not be a part in who you choose as president. I think that it very much has a standing in who you should vote for as president…I am a God-fearing christian and believe that a woman does not have the right to have an abortion any more than I have the right to shoot someone….killing is killing…the only exception is if the baby would kill the mother…then you could give the mother the choice, because either way would kill someone….it should not matter whether a person is democrat, republican, black, white, younger, or older…what should matter is what they stand for and who is right for the position….you are never going to find a canidate who is perfect, because no human is perfect, you have to find the person that God wants for the position, because after all…that is what our country was founded on…and by the way the separation of church and state was not in the constitution….it does not exist in our laws…and whoever brought that up is an idiot…check your facts before you bring something like that up….it was only stated in a letter from a preacher at a church to one of the early presidents…(I don’t remember offhand which one) and a reply from the president back to the preacher stating that there would be a separation of church and state so that the government could not have rule over the churches…check your facts next time and stop getting at each others throats…I am 19 years old and I have enough maturity not to do that….I am personally voting for McCain, and all I have to say is that everyone here will have to answer to God someday on their choices…and I am not going to have any hand in Obama having a chance to ruin this country
McCain is the man on domestic and foriegn policies. I want government to shrink, not grow. I want to give my money to the charities of my choice, not those that are chosen by government. McCain is right on when he talks about tax cuts, Obama will do away with the child and marriage income tax that we get back. WTF?? is that all about? I think abortion is horrid, especially partial birth. Adoption is the option. I support school vouchers. Ayers, Rezko, Alinsky, Wright, etc.. are they important to a campaign? Yes. It says a lot about a person by the company they keep. Acorn and affiliates..hmmm $800,000 to that bunch of democracy killers?! McCain is much wiser and he is ready to lead.
McCain is the better man for the job. We ALL know our founding father George Washington was not a man of good looks or words, much less a Harvard lab-trained debate extraordinaire, but a courageous man of Heart and Action. In McCain, I see this same spirit. I learned in adolescence not to Trust a person based on looks and promises, but only on their actual character and substance, which is actively affirmed through meaningful Service. I think both candidates make good senators, but only one, a United States President.
Dear Jessica, I respect your very mature comment, especially for a 19 yr. old.
If I vote, I plan to vote for Obama. However, If you enlist in the military and go to war in Iraq or anywhere we go next then I will change my vote to McCain. The reason I say this is because I believe these wars (wether justified or not) are costing the American people more than we’re benefiting from them (both in lives and money). That being said, I feel that McCain is more likely to continue the Iraq war longer and be more prone to start in with Iran? So, if you feel so strong about McCain’s policies and are willing to put your life in the line the least I can do is support you.
Dave,
I have friends that are in the armed forces, and they do not think that the war over there is a waste. I know that it could have been handled better, and I believe that it will be beneficial for us to stay over there until the job is done and not pull out too early, or stay too late. Let me ask you this question though, do you believe that we should not have helped that country out? My friends and I do. If you see someone that needs help and you can help them, you should. I also believe that some of the fault could be placed on some of the other countries who did not help us out. We should not have had to do this war on our own. Other countries have relied on us to provide the muscle when things need fixed. We should be over there, we just shouldn’t be alone, and anyone who thinks that we should have let those people suffer is in the wrong.
It’s been said that the gloves are coming off. Well in this debate, McCain FINALLY hit hard, and I’m glad about that. Unfortunately, he just didn’t close the deal. When you’re a salesman, and when you’re trying to get elected then you are a salesman, you’re selling yourself, well when you’re a salesman, the most important thing is to know how to CLOSE THE DEAL. And that’s what McCain is having trouble doing. All his supporters seem to be doing that for him, a testament to his having lots of supporters, but really this is how he should have spoken at the first debate. By the third and final debate, the gloves should have already been long gone.
Republicans make no sense to me, and I don’t mean this disrespectfully but they just don’t.
They’re against abortions because they class it as killing.
Most are for the right to bare arms which could end up killing someone.
Most are for the death penalty
And most are for a war where over 4000 American and foreign troops have been killed and countless civilians have been killed.
At what point when answering to God is or isn’t killing OK?
nzpudding,
Abortions are killing. An embryo is a living HUMAN!!
People who are going to get guns and kill a person are most likely not going to do it legally. To take away the right to bare arms would be making law-abiding citizens defenseless against criminals, not to mention lowering the amount of wild game killed every year during hunting season, and causing more wrecks on the road possibly killing people because of overpopulation of larger game, like deer.
The death penalty is for muderers, and is justified by God in the Bible.
We don’t have a draft. The soldiers that are in this war are there because they have signed up to be in the armed forces, and they know that getting killed in war is a possibility, it is a choice made by them, no one puts a gun to their head and forces them to enlist. I never said that I was a Republican, but I am. I am a bipartisan voting Republican, and if anyone had any sense in their heads, then they would be bipartisan too. It should not matter what party they belong to, what should matter is what they stand for, and who is best suited for the position. I am voting for McCain, but I am voting for some Democrats in other positions.
During ALL of the debates, McCain seemed to be more interested in pointing fingers at Obama THAN talking about what he would do as a president. Obama also pointed fingers, but he appeared to be more interested in talking about his policies. From that point of view, Obama seems more dedicated.
And if I were to disregard that and try to comprehend Obama’s and McCain’s plans, I get the same feeling that many others are getting: A LOT of McCain’s plans sound like George W. Bush’s with only few differences. Obama’s plans sound much more reasonable than McCain’s. Additionally, McCain seemed vague at times, as if he was leaving out information. Obama seemed clearer and more thorough about where he was going without using useless sentiments like McCain used.
As a citizen of this country, I just hope people make the right decision in the end. I do not care if the candidate has looks, youth, or sentiments—-I would vote for the candidate who seems more dedicated and complete in his presentation of the objective. I do not know whom other people will vote for—-all I know is that after following the campaign as closely as I did, OBAMA seems to be the BETTER CHOICE, and I will vote for him.
McCain makes me nervous, he’s got so many years experience in heated debates, he knows how to visually and verbally come off very prepared. But it seems in the last few head ons, he’s using that experience to go right for attacks. Truthfully it seems more like were gonna get a poison between good foreign policy with bad economic changes, or good economic changes with bad foreign policy. McCain may support oil companies, but his cuts will help the smaller business in a domino affect. But with Obama we have a more sensible approach to our middle eastern issues. So I guess its pick your poison on Nov. 4th. Maybe i should just flip a coin. Its tough. Although improving our foreign issues would more than likely help rebuild or own economy in the long term.
Maybe I missed the part in the Bible that excuses murder if it’s perpetrated by either a soldier or person with a valid gun permit, but last I checked it was just ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ And somehow, I really doubt that stricter gun control would overrun us with wildlife. The threat from gun-wielding vigilantes seems far greater than that from wildlife loitering on our roads.
I appreciate the international perspective from the first few commenters, but wonder if the last three commenters even listened to Obama or have ever listened to him. Take off your republican blinders for a second and do some fact checking on McCain’s desperate attacks on Obama.
I’ve voted Republican, Democratic and Independent in the past. I have no doubt that Obama will easily win over Democratic and swing voters to win the race (it’s not as close as the media tells you folks).
If you are a person that does not rely on morals, then at least use your head. Raising taxes on rich people, like what Obama wants to do, is only going to make them move their money overseas. That would hurt our economy, and it would also hurt the lower class that get their employment from those people. If more businesses leave the country, then they take their jobs with them, and the ones that don’t leave the country or take their money overseas, (who would most likely be few and far between), then the lower classes would still suffer. What hurts the employer, hurts the employee.
You’re right Jessica. I stand for Barack Obama, the man who is clearly best suited for the job. Kill em’ all, I’m “pro abortion” as Mccain put it. I’m too tired to get into politics right now, but I just wanted to show some love to my man.
McCain is even more incoherent than Bush. Is that possible????
Obama is calm, articulate and above all— he makes sense. Presidential material, pure and simple. I want someone with intelligence, NOT ANGER, in the White House.
I agree with Jessica. I am in the US military, and I have been overseas and it is not a waste. Many people over do not think it is a waste. On another note, I want my right to bear arms because if guns are made illegal… that wont rid the country of them. That wont stop someone from holding up banks or breaking into my house. I do not carry a gun around on my hip everywhere I go, but I do want the right to have a gun in case of an emergency. Drugs are illegal and they are everywhere… if guns are outlawed, the the outlaws will still have them and what will we have to protect ourselves and our families? In those situations it’s either kill or be killed. If you choose not to own a gun that’s your choice. If you choose not to kill or not to support the war that’s also your choice, but dont force your choices on everyone else.
CBS Polls
http://www.youtube.com/wa.....iGRHglZGso
CNN Polls
http://www.youtube.com/wa.....OoKNcl3aUA
Fox News focus Group ( this is bad for McCain)
http://www.youtube.com/wa.....cDc-bUYFPI
Jessica
Are you for Capital Punishment for people who are actually innocent? Are you aware that our system has actually killed innocent people? How about the people who were innocent who got saved with in a short time of getting killed?
The system as it stands is not 100% and if it is not 100% then it isn’t worth one innocent life for the remaining guilty.
So if you oppose killing innocent lives then you have to oppose that as well. And if we are going to use the Bible’s law for the law of the land then you must be against the separation of church and state. Then the next question is. What laws in the bible are we going to use and which laws are we going to not use? I mean we can’t use the bible for the reason we are going to use some of the laws in the bible while not wanting to use the other ones.
Jessica
“We should be over there, we just shouldn’t be alone, and anyone who thinks that we should have let those people suffer is in the wrong. ”
The war isn’t about people suffering. Because if that was the case we would have been all through Africa first. That is the reason they shifted to once evidence came out that there was no weapons of mass destruction and sadaam had no connection to 9/11. Then they decided that we went there to liberate people. Could you imagine if they told us that at first? that we were only going there because those people are suffering and we need to help them? A lot of questions would have come up. Like why those people? What makes those people more deserving of our help than the M A N Y other countries which have people starving and genocide?
Remember the other countries also helped us with Afghanistan. Why? Because they all knew it was justified. They didn’t have the same sentiment about Iraq.
Whoa Jessica,
I appreciate your views, and how sincerely they were stated. But, by all of your accounts and concerns, it is THE REPUBLICAN scenario of life that makes so many of us suffer with financial burdens, no attention, and a preference to make the rich richer and, as we’ve gathered this last month, that is a failed economic approach that deserves significant revision. Don’t sell yourself out to the phoniness of the right. If they truly cared about people we could have sensed it. For a brief period after 9/11, Bush united us. We needed him to, and he did. How brief though.
It’s time for people to feel like their voice is heard. We have a unique opportunity to make this so. Billions of people are thinking about this election. Better make sure you know exactly what you’re talking about.
McCain was solid tonight,. and he let on where the hostilities started.
Obama made a big speil when he was a long shot about how he would have all these town hall style meetings,.. and then bailed out. I think McCain was really looking forward to them.
I really like McCains response when Obama kept trying to beat the Bush horse.
Obama cited Biden as being acknowleged as knowlegable on foriegn policy, and that he would consult him..I almost spilled my coffee on my keyboard. I was glad McCain put it straight,.. if you’ve got a little time look up some of the ideas he has supported. I think Palin with no foriegn policy is a leg up.
I was amused when Obama said, “Joe the plumber” would’nt see any penalty and in fact get a credit. lol,.. by his own criteria “joe the plumber” falls into the catergory that he describes as getting a fine. (which he still wouldnt disclose the amount)
Obama wants to take an “x-acto knife” to a problem that in reality NEEDS an axe.
Think about it for a minute,.. you’ve got a bus careening down a narrow street,.. Obamas plan is like each rider on the bus one by one drag their feet til you can regain control,.. hopefully, in the mean time it doesnt run too many people down, or worse yet run into a brick wall.
McCain wants to slam on the brakes and end this crazy ride,.. then he wants to fix what it was that caused the bus to lose control. THATS CHANGE! Thats what all these mamby pamby wanna be’s havnt the guts to do.
The US pays more for schools than any country on earth, and has markedly some of the worst educated on the average.
Obama wants to throw money at it,..
McCain wants to reform it so it works, and not throw any money at it since it allready has more than enough.
I noticed Obama was quick to get on the charter school program after McCain introduced it,..
At times Obama looked a little suprised that McCain was actualy a man of substance, with valid and inovative Ideas.
McCain has another point,.. although nothing to do with issues,… it showed the character of the two canidates.
McCain has been seen and documented as refuting rediculous allegations made about his opponet. Yet when confronted, Obama sidesteps the issue and refuses to lend a micron of good sportsmanship. How petty!
Obama cited three different things that were the “centerpiece” of McCains campaign.Its like he couldnt make up his mind which one it was, lol.
What I found most amusing was how he seems to have completely missed McCains actual campaign “centerpiece” (cut goverment spending, and coruption, “thats my record”)
Its probably lucky for Obama they only had 3 debates.
I wish the two of them had 6,.. I get the feeling the lights would come one for many. Showmanship is only good for so long.
If I were rating someones performance for how well they did to present a good show,.. I wouldnt give one over the other though I think Obama got his arse handed to him several times.
My perdiction is McCain climbs in the poles.
When it gets down to the brass tacks,.. who walks the talk?,.. pretty simple really.
You want to see REAL CHANGE?
Put in someone who can really do it!
McCain/Palin 08
that post was the one of the most naive things i’ve ever read. I read it three times to make sure I was right that it was one of the dumbest things I had seen posted in awhile. Totally delusional, full of illogical assertions, and a clear reason why they just do get it. Mccain’s main supporters will be screwed by him.
NZPUDDING SAID “Republicans make no sense to me, and I don’t mean this disrespectfully but they just don’t.
They’re against abortions because they class it as killing.
Most are for the right to bare arms which could end up killing someone.
Most are for the death penalty
And most are for a war where over 4000 American and foreign troops have been killed and countless civilians have been killed.
At what point when answering to God is or isn’t killing OK?”
LET ME RESPOND
Interesting point.
But then you would have to know the mind of God.
From a pure statistical standpoint the ratio of people killed by firearms and war is infintessimal by comparison to the number of babies that we murder yearly, and call it choice. Oh I hear all the what about rape or incest arguments,.. but consider this,.. in 2005 there were 1.2 million,.. thats right,.. MILLION, abortions in the US.
WOW! rape and incest must really be on the rise!
So tell me,.. where do you think Gods judgement is going to rest with that?
IronMan–Didn’t Hussein kill 500,000 of his own people before we went to Itaq. Didn’t Congress vote for the war. Didn’t the U.N. approve it. Not one in the security Council vetoed it. Hasn’t every budget for the war been passed. Doesn’t America send it’s soilders to many areas to help others. Can America fight in every country with problems?
Mike A
I usualy wouldnt respond to such tripe,.. but I found your comments somewhat puzzling. Not really in your content or approach, they lacked originality.
The clasic, “I dont have anything intelligent to say so I’ll be sarcastic and insulting” is an all too often response, and usualy denotes ignorance.
However you stir my curiosity in that you read the post three times and were still unable to form any logical objection.
Suposition and preception with no factual criteria to form a basis for argument or objection is meaningless and without substance.
In simpler terms,.. no point.
I’d be entertained if you could muster a rational objection/argument to even 1 statement I made.
But what the hey,.. lets see if McCain comes up in the poles.
Jessica- You are of course right. Economic rules of risk-reward theory. Many jobs have left America because of high wages, regulation, high taxes, etc..Fear of Obama talk of rich giving to the poor has slowed econmoic growth, and should lead to increase money and jobs leaving the Country. Obama is bound to tax 401′s, the retirement source for most Americans. Taxing companies causes the added tax to be paid by buyer of their products. Thus the middle class or whoever buys thes products pay added indirect taxes. Have not heard Obama say that. Higher cost of products may make that product too high . Thus leading to withdraw from our shores by those companies. Opting for cheaper labor and lower taxes. Making their product more competitive in world market. Of course Obama would be foced to change high tax on rich eventually, but only after loss of jobs….. Small scale example– Bill Clinton had to reduce high tax he put on Yatchs. Because rich stopped buying yatchs. High tac on yatch is a very small item. But shows results that occur on bigger scale.
Jessica,
I think some people can use their morals and their head. Sometimes you need to know about how the world (not just the US) in order to choose the most appropriate president. Obama wants to raise income taxes for the rich and reduce or cut them for the middle class and poor. I don’t know where you think the rich people of this country would take their money if taxes were increased. Europe has much higher income tax rates than the U.S. at 20-30% (even for the poor and middle class!) depending on the country. From an American standpoint, these percentages are outrageous. Secondly, they would not have the option to declare income tax in a foreign country even if they worked or owned property outside the U.S. because unlike any other country I know, the U.S. taxes us based on citizenship not residence. That means, if you live and/or work abroad, you are technically required to pay taxes to the country where you live AND the U.S.
Rich people would not have the option to legally take their earned income overseas.
Another one of your posts that caught me, was the bit about the Iraq war and how if people need help, we should help them. Was Iraq asking for help before we invaded or did we just assume they wanted it? Why is there so much resistance from those who “needed our help”? And if we are to be guided by this principle, why don’t we help the many other countries/people in the world who need and ask for help? What about famine and Aids in Africa? What about human traficking in eastern Europe? What about human rights abuses in China and Russia? What about the homeless, the poor, or the millions of adults and children without health care in our own country? What do we do to help in these situations? I think if you are a Christian guided by the moral to help the needy, there are far greater burdens on your shoulders than many Republicans, including John Mccain and hockey moms, who aspire the run the country, are willing or interested to address.
Bill Hedges,
You get no argument from me,.. Hussien was feeding his people into chippers feet first.
Dreadsen has a point,.. but its based on more of a scocial awarness aspect.
It is not likely ANYONE in john Q public will really know what goes on behind closed doors,.. its why so many things look contradictory, are not, just as things that look plausible can be quite the opposite.
I know enough about military intelligence to know we dont know, and thats how it should be.
People have been so anxious to embrace the concept that we just fell down on the job in Afghanistan, and basicaly started a war in Iraq cuz we had a golden opportunity to set up a workable situation where we could control oil, or the price of such to the states.
Though it may turn out to be a by product that suits us favorably, Starting a war in Iraq would be the least effective way to achieve the means. As hard as it might be for some of the “true believers” to embrace,.. our military leaders arnt a bunch of mouth breathing idiots that dont know as much as you do about war, how to wage it, or how to get what we want using miltary interdiction.
Without going off with pages of my views, just consider this.
As far as the world was concerned,.. Iraq and Iran were bitter enemies,.. why was it again we helped Iraq with chemical weapons, and promoted Saddams attacks on Iran?
Irion Maan- yes, a favorite saying of the opposing side. we did this for oil. How funny, that Viet nam, Korea did not have oil. But once the country has oil, then we did it for oil. That is bias talk. Correct me if I am wrong, but other countries joined us in Itaq. And CIA said there was weapons of mass destrostion. Plus the games they played with our observers. And we have been killing learders of terrorist in Iraq ? Yoou sound miltary, I was a 55G20 in the army, getting my traing at Lttle Sandia. N.M. Soundounded by those hollow Mountains.
IronMaan–You know His people were killed with gas. And warnings went off in Sadia Arabia during first war. I believe gas was used. But as you may be aware, it must be done right to be affective.. Those warning went off for a reason. Silence was for security reason. Do you agree ?
This was by far the best debate between the two canidates. Its just when i hear Obama speak its like a broken record. Im undecided so far but im leaning toward McCain.
McCain Seems to not take this seriously.
i agree with Jessica.
her perspectives on thingsactually make sense.
and nzpudding has no brain.
you need to get a life.
I am an second generation American, entrepreneur and small business advocate living in Europe for nearly 19 years. A registered republican, a moderate in policy, an appointee of 2 Governors of the State of California, one democrat, one republican.
We are a divided nation in an economic crisis, with a debt we can not afford with long term issues and failing infrastructure with huge differences in idealogy.
There was a President who successfully brought this great nation together, Abraham Lincoln, who gave his life for his beliefs, that brought together, not tore us apart. He was succeeded by an indentured tailor. It seems to me that we need to get back to the basics that bring us together and get back to discuss what the priority of Government should be. This is not a hawk, not a negative attacking person, and must be very smart to lead us to resolve these difficult issues.
There is absolutely no question in my mind which of these candidates has these qualities, it is Barack Obama and Joe Biden. I will support them, and vote for them and work to get these issues the place of prominence that they deserve in our government and the minds of our citizens.
Jessica…I hope that you are continuing your education, and someday run for office…you will most definitely have my vote. After seeing many interviews of the “younger” generations on the news, and seeing how ill informed they are (some could not even identify photos of the candidates), it is truelly an inspiration to read your comments. Your generation is the future and I hope that you work to inspire others to be as informed as you are.
Now for my comments..I am a McCain supporter for many reasons. I think his health care plan is far more reasonable. I live in a small southern town that for many years has thrived on factories. All but one have closed down now. A very large portion of our population is unemployed and cannot find work. My husband is employed in the last remaining factory and it is about to close as well. How does Obama expect us to “buy” into federal health care, when we don’t have jobs and can barely afford food and housing. Atleast with McCain’s plan, we’ll have the funds to afford atleast some basic health care. Though, neither candidate has addressed the real problem behind health care. Illegal immigrants! I am all for people moving here and becoming citizens. America is a melting pot and should remain so. However, they should do it legally! They should pay into social security and have health insurance, etc. One of the major reasons health care is so grossly expensive, is because of the illegals running to hospitals and doctors without insurance. As a result…we foot the bill with higher premiums! This should be addressed and immediatley!
Abortion..A fetus has a heartbeat at 6 WEEKS!!!! God creates life! Yes, there are times when a child is raped and those situations should be addressed appropriately. I would like to know why we can produce a fertilized egg in a petrie dish and implant it in a woman, yet we cannot transplant a fetus. There are so many women who cannot reproduce but could still support a pregnancy. This process should be made affordable and accessable to anyone. As far as a woman who “accidentally” gets knocked up and doesn’t want the baby. SO WHAT! Yeah, you are pro choice I don’t doubt that, but, you already had your choice, whether or not to spread your legs! After that, you should have to face the consequences or allow that child to be adopted by a loving family!
Energy..Obama’s plan would take YEARS to implement, we need a fix NOW! How are people like me supposed to afford these highbrid cars he expects us to buy. I can barely keep the clunker I have now running, much less buy a new car. Yes, I agree that this would be better for the environment, but, unless he is planning on giving me a car or driving me 20 miles to work hisself, he is just out of luck! We have to drill now. Once, we have drilled and found a quicker fix to our immediate problems, then we should pursue some of his ideas, but only then.
Guns…I don’t like them, but, it is my consitutional right to own one. Right now in this country, any criminal can walk into an alley and buy a gun, sometimes even an automatic weapon. That will never change. Take drugs for example..they are illegal, yet even though the law abiding Americans don’t use them, they are still widely available to drug users and even children! Guns are no different. They will be smuggled and sold to those non law abiding citizens. What happens then? A criminal breaks into your house and shoots you because the steak knife in your hand is ridiculous, then rapes and murders your family. We have a right to protect ourselves and it really concerns me that any candidate for president would want to take that away!
It also concerns me that Obama, who is so obviously afraid to offend anyone, might become our next president. Obama won’t take a stand on anything that any one demographic might find offensive! We need a president who is strong, and not afraid to stand up for what is right. Sometimes you have to offend someone to protect the greater good. He just comes across to me as saying exactly what he has to say to get elected. McCain makes a stand and is not afraid to voice his views, yet, at the same time makes it clear that he would appoint qualified people of different views in order to make things fair for everyone. Obama would appoint “yes” men, in order to get his policies in place. Policies, which are radical and too vast to be acheivable at times. If he is allowed to turn EVERYTHING upside down and expand government, we are in for a major downfall! If he is so against the way everything works in America, then he should be running in some other country.
Economic rules of risk-reward theory. Many jobs have left America because of high wages, regulation, high taxes, etc..Fear of Obama talk of rich giving to the poor has slowed econmoic growth, and should lead to increase money and jobs leaving the Country.McCain has been seen and documented as refuting rediculous allegations made about his opponet. Yet when confronted, Obama sidesteps the issue and refuses to lend a micron of good sportsmanship
Bill your fears about job losses from higher (Same as Clinton, mind you, which had better growth than Bush) taxes on the rich are little more than propaganda. The laws of supply and demand determine how a tax is distributed. In a high demand product like healthcare (which by the way, McCain wants to tax), the tax is worn mostly by consumers, a low demand product or a product with many alternatives like a certain type of alcohol (eg. Bourbon), the tax is worm mostly by suppliers. That is very basic economics.
By your logic, why tax the rich at all? Why not go to the extreme. I really mean that, by your logic, wouldn’t that increase jobs, investment etc. Your rationale provides no reason to tax the rich at all. It would be great, you can have rich companies that can provide all the jobs and the workers can make stuff, consume and pay taxes.
That is called a class gap, a massive class gap, and really is not that ideologically different from Communism. What it does is possibly increase the GDP of a country while reducing living standards for the average person and virtually removing the middle class, and it’s what is already happening. Many Asian countries like China are leveraging that exact philosophy to become economic powers.
Coutries that fill the spectrum between a country like Sweden, with a relatively small class distinction, to your country which is middle-ish, but very poor for a developed country, then places like China and Taiwan with a massive class distinction. Look up the stats and see where you’d rather your country be, Sweden or China.
Obama’s plan and really the Democratic philosophy, is to stop the class distinction. He’s doing it for you. the real difference is where the parties want you to fit on that scale.
Fox News doesn’t want that, you think Rupert Murdoch wants to pay more tax or gives a crap about you. He does not. Making you think lowering his tax is good for you is one of the great swindles of modern times.
Being a Republican is going to be like being a Nazi after the war (settle down, I mean some ideological comparison), I simply mean that after the error of the ways is discovered no one will want to admit they were a Republican, it’s already started. Republicans themselves are already trying to say they want Regulation, when we all know deregulation is a core Republican value. Nationalising banks? Using socialist tenants are being used to save a broken system, not very Republican. AND who wants to admit now that they voted for Bush?
Oh the times they are a change-ing.
Well probably not, really, but I can hope…
Oh Bill, Vietnam was about Communism, and I think you, and like, the rest of the planet, know that. Iraq was oil, it’s the only decent excuse that hasen’t been proved wrong.
It surprises me that such pro-American Republicans can really think your intelligence services could be so wrong and inept about so many things. Bush had motivation to lie to get support for a war and oil he thought your country needed, so he did. Bush’s credibility is shot, he may very well go down as the worst president in history, is lying really much of a stretch?
It’s not rocket science, it’s simply what’s most plausible. No doubt many will disagree of course, but question the motives, if you can, of those who would tell you it happened the way you were told. Sadam? 911? connection – No, and that wasn’t really even disputed at the time. Most of highjackers were Saudis, any talk of invading them?
There’s still time, McCain 08!
Dale– My comment was actual, well thought out, with a living example. It is economically sound. Prehaps you can give me the definition of–class gap. I could not find that definition. I can find definition of risk-reward. Please enlighten me…Class gap…In my thoughts, you need not make conclusions. You may make your argument and compare to mine.. I believe that is how it works.
why is the Ohio sec of state trying to coverup voter fraud? i think its because shes a democrat.
get some info on the voter fraud investigation
http://www.palestra.net/
WTF Bill. There was No UN approval for Iraq! The war was ILLEGAL by UN law.
There’s a much better answer for you here.
That was pure ignorance.
Dale–un resolution 1441 approved Iraq war. sorry stupid
Dale, the fears are not propaganda that many will lose their jobs when Obama’s tax plan is implemented. It’s a fact. There’s more of us than there you think, apparently, and all over this country small business owners and associations are even NOW making plans to close our doors if Obama is elected. Watch the 1st quarter unemployment numbers for 2009 if you don’t believe me. People are in denial here. Small Businesses support this country on every front, and we’re not going to submit to Obama’s taxation, fines, or bs. It’s that simple.
Dale Iraq warwas not about oil. You did not read or see my comment. Iraq oil has been basically shut down til recently. Do read reason I gave. You seem to skip points. But pleasexplain how it was oil. I would like to hear.
what will obama do when the top 5% closes shop? lol. we already have the 2nd highest tax rate in the world for business, whats this guy trying to do set a new record? lets hope we dont have to find out how that works out.
Perhaps then Bill, if you could be so kind, please tell me why tax the rich at all? I want to know, give me a reason. Answer me only that and I’ll be happy. Actually anybody answer please, all your arguments can apply to that philosophy as easily as the current one, so why not?
Bill what do you mean you don’t get what I mean by class gap? Rich get richer, poor get poorer, no middle class. eg. China
Dale- you mis-used the term,,supply and demand. Please check the definition.
Dale Look up class gap. I can not find definition. Maybe you can. Either re-read what I wrote or read Babs comments. Maybe you can understand her better. My comments are economically sound. Yours are not. I have a limited knowledge of economics. I do not think you do, because of you use of supply and demad. Incorredtly.
Dale – To answer your question. Coperate tax should be lowered. This would create jobs and actually increase taxes collected. As in example I gave on lowering Yatch tax.
Dale- I am sorry I called you stupid. Please don’t call me ignorant
I’m a male, so when it comes to the abortion issue I think it should be the right to choose for these reasons:
#1. Women will seek them if they are legal or not. Making them illegal would probably reduce the numbers of them preformed every year, but would not stop them. And if you out law them, you can’t regulate health and safety standards and young women will die or be permanently harmed by having the procedure done.
#2. I don’t believe the name God should come up in any debate about the law. While the phrase “separation of church and state” is a quote from a letter from Thomas Jefferson, it is still one of the fundamentals of the First Amendment. By making this a nation of personal freedom of choice, and not choosing an official national religion, then we must allow our laws to be influenced by any religious ideology.
#3. As a man I do not feel I have the right to tell a woman she can not make a choice about a medical procedure for her own body. Its interesting that the catholic church used to say birth control was a sin, but you didn’t see them lobbying to make getting a vasectomy or having your tubes tied illegal. (Just an interesting side note, not an attack on the catholic church.)
Okay now, some other things I’ve noticed reading here:
First off, Jessica you’re 19, why aren’t you in the armed forces RIGHT THIS VERY SECOND? If you feel the war in Iraq is justified, that we are helping people there, that it is the right thing to do, why aren’t you in uniform yet?
Seems like these days everyone has “friends” in the military, but I honestly think most of those young people who say that, just mean they know a guy from their high school that joined. If so many people have “friends” in the military, why are the Army and Marine Corps. struggling every year to meet recruiting goals? Personally I think its easy to say you are behind a war, as long as you are literally behind it.
Doesn’t matter if you have friends or not, why aren’t you serving this country? And there is NO anger in my line of questioning, honestly, I just want to know why so many people think we are there to do good deeds, but are not joining up themselves? I think every single person of service age that is VERY pro war should be signed up today, period.
In all honesty we went to Iraq for these reasons:
#1. Oil
#2. W wanted to finish something he thought his daddy didn’t
#3. oh wait, that’s it just pretty much Oil and W playing cowboy
Now before ANYONE jumps on my post as being unpatriotic, read this next bit carefully. And when you read it keep in mind it is being written by a member of the US Army. Yup, that’s right folks, I’m college educated, a registered democrat, and I joined the US Army to serve my country BEFORE either of these wars started, and I’m still serving it today. So even though I don’t agree with why we went into Iraq, and personally feel we were intentionally lied to in order to draw support for the invasion, I still am serving.
#1. THERE IS NOTHING UNPATRIOTIC ABOUT QUESTIONING WHY AND HOW THIS COUNTRY USES ITS MILITARY! Seriously folks, you want everyone to stop questioning and voicing their opinion simply because we are at war? How UNPATRIOTIC is that? How UNAMERICAN is it to say, “right now since we’re at war, you can’t say what you think?” Being able to say what you think and question the direction this country takes IS THE ONLY REASON WE ARE A FREE NATION!
Even if you honestly feel that we are doing some good in Iraq, then you should want the war questioned. Wasn’t questioning the war how the government decided to spend more money on troop body armor and blast proofing more vehicles? Yes it was. Would that happened as fast if the media, soldiers, and people at home had said nothing cause “we can’t question the war?” No it would not have happened as fast as it did. So questioning the war saved HUNDREDS of American lives. Good job freedom of speech!
#2. I think the comment earlier about “we’re all human and human is not perfect” is exactly right. And since not one single one of us is perfect, then we all have to question things, discuss things, help each other see other options, in order to get things as right as we can humanly make them. The last 8 years we’ve seen the country run by a very small group of dangerous elitists who have attempted to ignore and stomp out anyone who questions anything they have done.
No matter what party is in control the fewer people making choices in government for this country only hurts us all.
#3. I find the idea that killing is wrong, but the bible says the death penalty is okay, to be a load of crap. Either you are against the taking of a human life or you are not. This is an issue that there can be no gray area on in my opinion. (And yes, I do realize that this is just an opinion.) “Abortion is state supported murder” is what I’ve heard pro lifers always say, well what the heck is the death penalty then? I am not a deeply religious man, so I do believe that there are some people who have given up their right to walk this Earth. I just find it hard to stomach people who argue these points this way. One type of killing is okay, and another is not. Seems to me that if God is against the taking of one life, he’s against the taking of all life.
See there we go again with religion in political discussions. This is exactly why laws should be written and enforced with out religious influences. Because guess what folks? RELIGION IS MAN MADE AND THEREFORE NOT PERFECT.
No matter what major faith you are, it is man made. Most of the major religions were founded thousands of years ago, by men who “received” divine guidance in writing their text. Ever wonder why God has not spoke like that to anyone in a couple of thousand years? Probably because when people these days say “God has told me this” they end up in a mental ward some where or at the very least on very strong medication.
Religion is by its self not harmful or evil. It is the zealous pursuit of religious believes that is an evil thing. It hasn’t always been the Islamic extremists that called for the death of “non believers.” I think the crusades killed far more people in the name of God.
This election has generated a lot of talk about dividing the country, and it has done just that. Its a sad thing really, because “DIVIDED WE FALL.” When one group enforces its ideology over another, be it by political means, or by force we all suffer. I see the major religions being used as the tool that keeps humanity divided. No this isn’t a call to give up religion, it is just a call for tolerance with in reason. Every major religion on the world stage today, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have wonderful messages of hope in them. But they all have flaws as well, and extremists have used these flaws for hundreds of years to keep humanity divided under the banner of “We are God’s chosen people, and that gives us the divine right to treat anyone else as a lesser being.” Didn’t God create man? So aren’t we all “chosen?” So don’t we all have the same right to existence?
Wow, way off base for a comment on a political debate, but heck who’s really going to listen to this anyway?
i think there absolutely is a class gap but i think it is defined by an individuals personal drive to succeed, for the most part anyway. it seems alot of people here make the mistake of thinking republicans are cold, hard hearted people that dont give a shit about the problems of the poor or less fortunate. that i can assure you is not the case. they (and i agree) think that handing out money is not the answer. its like that old saying “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish and you have fed him for a lifetime”
McCain – job growth and opportunity
obama – cash handouts
do you understand yet?
Eric F– I agree with you. Babs is giving living proof of Obama’s wrong economice. If people only understood it. They see a few free dollars,, but blinded to the real cost. If people could only underst sub-prme as well.
Eric F–I belive if people understood Obama’s economic maham, McCain would esily be elected.. If you are still here Babs, I think you would agree ?
to further my argument i would say lower corporate taxes leads to business growth and higher profits and that leads to higher wages and stable prices on goods and services. you can call it reverse inflation.
Bill,
According to most members of the Security Council, it is up to the council itself, and not individual members, to determine how the body’s resolutions are to be enforced.
UN resolution 1441 did NOT approve the war. I offered you further reading, here’s more.
Actually I’m university educated in economics. Supply and demand effect many areas of economics, including the distribution of taxes. A tax increase on a product, or the production of a product, is essentially a price increase. However, that price increase reduces demand, which in turn reduces the price. Where equilibrium is struck, and the eventual price, is a matter of the elasticities of supply and demand.
It’s tough to explain without graphs, but luckily there’s wikipedia Supply, Demand and taxes.
AND PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION. Obviously I know the arguments, my point, is that they can apply equally to a complete abolition of all taxes on the rich. Given that nobody would realistically advocate this, the argument becomes what the ideal rate is, which is the point of the discussion. In terms of tax and a % of GDP, The US is 36th in the world at 27.3%, behind nearly all of the developed world, with Sweden at the top with a 51.3%. REF
My point is your fears are just that, fears. Acting out of fear is not productive and will not help your country, that’s how you got Iraq.
Oh and finally Bill, here’s a reference for class gap. It’s not exactly an article about the class gap exactly, but it goes right into the issues. I advise you read it, it’ll give you some ammo too. I could find a better ref I guess, but I’ve put in my time…
Eric F–On the money
Bill Mate it’s long thread, and there’s a moderation delay, and I seem to be the only liberal voice, so if I don’t cover everything, it’s because I don’t touch type. And you point-skip too, let’s be honest here.
EricF,
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish and you have fed him for a lifetime”.
Too true, couldn’t agree more. Your point I imagine is education, I have written quite a few posts about that. Making college affordable is one of the key elements of Obama’s campaign, what’s McCains education policy exactly? You just saw the same debate I did, we know the answer.
Your “arguments” were caricatures, not arguments. Give real data, real policies, and you might just convince a few moderates.
in response to nzpudding Comment:
“Just watched Dick Morris say that he thinks McCain won the debate but Obama might get a one or two point bump in the polls…wtf? What kind of ass-backwards working out is he using?”
This is why we hear ridiculous things OVER and OVER and OVER again:
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly – it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”
-and-
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
-Hitler and/or Joseph Goebbels(Hitler’s Master of Propaganda)
NBC has long been known to be very liberal…so what do you expect?
Funny opener by McCain… Nancy Reagan has always disliked John McCain very much, based on his behavior in his personal life.
Dale. first of all not everyone is college bound. now if you want to get into early education then it opens the door to all kinds of debate and thats fine with me. the most important point i could ever make and alot of people will ignore at all costs is the fact that the environment that alot of minority kids come from and bring with them is not condusive to the public education system. you have alot of parents out there not setting the right example and infact are setting the completely wrong example. so i will say its not the education system that is broken, its the lack of positive community upbringing that needs to be looked at if you ever can expect a true solution to the education problems. throwing money at the problem will not fix anything but will only result in more failure and more blame.
waits for the “your a racist typical liberal response”
Dale I gave real economic . You used supply and demand wrong. I am one finger typist. You skipped my points, ideas, and logic. I would hope you will re-read .
Dave – my argument was not,,exaggeration. But factual. Babs gave her living example. Supply and demand is this–example. Large supply of oil will lower oil price. When demand lowers supply, price rises.. Class gap is not a ecnmomic term, at least not when I studied economics.
Sorry Bill but I didn’t skip your points, I have a very comprehensive reply awaiting moderation. I did not use supply and demand wrong. If I’m not being censored, which I’d like to think I’m not since there’s nothing offensive, just solid logic in my post, you will get to read it soon. There’s a lot of economic stuff in there, maybe Nate wants CG to read it first, I dunno, but I hope it falls through the net soon or else I’ll try to repost it.
EricF your points re education are perfectly valid, and I don’t disagree. Why you isolated it to minorities is questionable though. But that advocates for real education policy which is not a partisan issue anyway, though Obama discussed it in more detail in the debate. I don’t necessarily agree with Obama that more money is needed either, but it may be too. It’s far too complicated an issue to expect anybody without a LOT of research to answer.
to further my argument i would say lower corporate taxes leads to business growth and higher profits and that leads to higher wages and stable prices on goods and services. you can call it reverse inflation.
Where did you pull that from? Come on please give some sort of reference, lower taxes can lead to economic growth, I covered that point. That does not necessarily lead to higher wages or stable prices or higher living standards either I might ad. If it did, you would have seen that over the past 8 years, and it didn’t!
Here’s my repost, sorry if we get double-up:
Bill,
According to most members of the Security Council, it is up to the council itself, and not individual members, to determine how the body’s resolutions are to be enforced.
UN resolution 1441 did NOT approve the war. I offered you further reading, here’s more.
I’m sorry I called you ignorant, but you are very wrong, and that’s a big deal you didn’t know that. It’s a big part of what people mean when they say you lost your moral standing in the world.
Actually I’m university educated in economics. Supply and demand effect many areas of economics, including the distribution of taxes. A tax increase on a product, or the production of a product, is essentially a price increase. However, that price increase reduces demand, which in turn reduces the price. Where equilibrium is struck, and the eventual price, is a matter of the elasticities of supply and demand.
It’s tough to explain without graphs, but luckily there’s wikipedia Supply, Demand and taxes.
AND PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION. Obviously I know the arguments, my point, is that they can apply equally to a complete abolition of all taxes on the rich. Given that nobody would realistically advocate this, the argument becomes what the ideal rate is, which is the real point of the discussion. In terms of tax and a % of GDP, the US is 36th in the world at 27.3%, behind nearly all of the developed world, with Sweden at the top with a 51.3%. REF
My point is your fears are just that, fears. Acting out of fear is not productive and will not help your country, that’s how you got Iraq.
Oh and finally Bill, here’s a reference for class gap. It’s not exactly an article about the class gap exactly, but it goes right into the issues. I advise you read it, it’ll give you some ammo too. I could find a better ref I guess, but I’ve put in my time…
Dale thats easy for you to say. the fact of the matter is that on 9/11 America was attacked on its own soil for the first time since Pearl Harbor. of course Bush had to act and he did so in the right manner for the most part. the war in Iraq was mishandled after victory was claimed and it has cost us in the sense that this could have been over if handled better. the point is however that 10bil a month has hurt us economically but was necessary and has helped keep the American people safe and sound. hate Bush or his policies if you want, that is fine but the fact is America has not been attacked since and is a direct result of what we are accomplishing in Iraq. it is very easy to criticize but you really have to wonder what would have happened under a Gore presidency.
Dale- I am going to get off computor now. Just one last thought. I have not convinced that you actually read what I wrote. You did not repeat hardly any of my points. Now you want real data, etc. I provided proof of U,N. resolution.. I gave reasons for Iraq war, whick oil was not it. But you still want what I already gave you. Listen, you want to stick to your beliefs no matter what. I am O.K. with that. I can lead you to water, but can not make you drink. Knwledge.. Read Jim Mrris book, that may make you understand. He was with Bill Clinton, your kind of guy, right…..But I think you are bound and determined not to change your mind. In which case, I do not want to waste my time on this. I did my best
“Why you isolated it to minorities is questionable though.”
because the inner cities, heavily minority populated is where these failing schools come from. saying my answer is questionable is the typical liberal response and it completely ignores the real base of the issue. ignoring the problem with pc answers has moved this country in the completely wrong direction and has never solved any problems. i guess you cant understand that seeing as you are not from America. does that make me a racist? i dont think so, i think it makes me a realist.
I’m still here, Bill, and yes, I agree. Though some people do understand Obama’s tax policies and still want them. Those are the ones that will benefit from his new Welfare Nation. To those I say, if the shoe fits go ahead and wear it, that’s why I paid for it.
Bill as I said I covered your points, my repost seems to be lost in moderation too, I apologise if it takes a while, check back later hopefully it makes it through, I don’t know what the hold up is.
EricF, it IS questionable to isolate a statement like that to minorities alone. I SAID I AGREE, but frankly, saying it’s just minorities IS racist. You say it’s real, but you have plenty of irresponsible white parents too, and you know that.
EricF really mate, what did Iraq have to do with 911? Nothing and that’s public record. Invoking that is a bit ridiculous, it has nothing to do with what we’re discussing. If you don’t get all my points then please read up, I try to post refs wherever possible. I don’t mind disagreement at all, without it this would all be boring. Please educate yourself first, if you can’t make an argument without resorting to rhetoric then research, you might just find an argument to trump mine, or learn a different or better perspective than mine or yours.
My real point is that don’t just believe what either candidate, or anybody says on face value, do your own research and form your own opinions based on facts, not rhetoric.
That’s the real principle of democracy, and political rhetoric designed specifically to distort that.
I hope my main post makes it through soon, please read it, please say it’s wrong, whatever, but use real proof. I’m going to bed, it’s late here…
All right, I just want to say that I believe (mind you I believe, I know everyone else have their opinions so consider mine) that McCain was very right on the first issue of the debate. We need stop out sourcing to other countries so that way we may create more jobs in America. When we do this our economy of course will also grow. The main issue right now is making our economy grow by stopping the out sourcing. Yes there are people out there who will be affected by Obama’s proposal. One is my husband. Listen, all this time we have been struggling to make ends meet. Living paycheck to paycheck. Finally, recently, (Recently: within this month) even through this cucial economic scare my husband finally has the opportunity to get us out of these past debts and not have to claim bankruptcy and give up. But because through hard work and perseverance, which there are many Americans I know are out there, we can finally save, get our credit back in good standing and actually, through good budgeting, possibly put my 2 children to college in 12 years. My husband finally had the chance like Joe, to have that business. And you know what my husband’s business will be making more than that quarter million. Not by much mind you. But you know what, though that money will be going through his business account, we will not be getting even a quarter of that. Why? Because he’ll be paying his employees. He’s able to pay his employees at a decent rate, but you know what he still has to manage to keep his payroll down. So with McCain’s plan, my husband will be able to benefit. How? He’ll be able to employ more people, be able to afford to get an assistant so that way my husband will not have to work at least 63 hours a week/6 days a week. Is that not the american dream? To work so hard and finally get there? But, through Obama’s plan he’ll have to pay so much more in taxes, to work more and yet still have to cut payroll. You know what that means? My husband will have to fire more employees so that way he can support us. And yes, I work part time. So keep this in mind when you vote! Your vote matters and I can only wish that my vote matters but unfortunately I am only a legal resident and can not vote. (Yes, my family are all natural born citizens.)
Dale if education is important to you. I have a comprehensive major in Psychology, Minor sociology, 12 hours econmomics, near teacher degree. I was a 55G20 in Army, which is Nuclear Power maintence Spec.6. A fancy eectrician.5pec. 6. We had a long discussion last night. You show little like for Bush or American. It is curious to me the way this went down. And yes, you mis-quoted what supple and demand is. A very basic concept ! That tells me something is not true with you. Just as UN did approve Iraq war. As I proved. Something is amist.
Babs- I hope you have read this tread tonight. Something seem very wrong in Dale’s response. Simple economic terms was incorectly used by him.. Yet he denies. Am I right ? I am finsh with him. Think that would be best.
Babs- From another thread I feel Dale is a socialist. I can safely say you and I are not.
EricF – I’m just curious how you can say that Obama is all about cash handout’s when McCain wants to hand out $5000 to everyone to solve heathcare. While I’m still unsure on whom will get my vote, I can tell you that I don’t think that Obama is purely for handing cash out and against job growth. I also don’t think that McCain is purely about job growth and is against handing cash out.
Every election we try to choose the one that will best serve the people. The past eight years will go down in history as the WORST president and some of the dumbest decisions ever made. The past eight years is the reason this election so important to all of us.
Regardless the winner, we need to unite as a country and pull ourselves out of this huge hole we’ve gotten ourselves into.
Although there is more other issues they should of mentioned, i think they basicly covered the most important thing right now which is building up our Economy again!! Senator Obama has more of a promising proposal at this point of our country. It is only right for the wealthy people to pay more taxes than the middle class citizens due to the simple fact that they can afford to pay more. Isn’t that what americans are all about? Helping one another? I definitely don’t think u have to taxes for ur health benefits> ! Which Senator McCain is planning on doing when he gives everyone of us that $5000. Seriously whats $5000? how far can u go w/that? McCain is all about NOW << but OBAMA is all about the future. GO OBAMA!! change is what we need and i believe he can make the difference !!
Jessica,
Separation of religion and state is in the constitution and is protected by the 1st amendment. I suggest you do some research and look at what our Bill of Rights says.
I think Jessica has too much time on her hands to be responding to everyones comments.No disrespect to you if you like the idea of continuing Bush’s legacy but Im a strong support for Obama.We need change and McCain can’t do it.
I really hope McCain wins because Obama is not a leader he has no record McCain will make a change but if Obama wins i wont be bad either i just want us out of Iraq so i dont have to go this next year
Dale you dont think a stable Iraq is crucial to the safety and well being of America? i give up on you Dale. you think everything is cut and dry, black and white. i would love to live in your world where everything is that simple and reality is unimportant.
Cindy,
Thank you for your comment. I am continuing my education, and I am considering switching my college major to political science. It is something that I discusss a lot with my parents, who were able to vote at the past elections. My parents care alot about this country, and have instilled it in me. I was even lobbying at school for elections when I was seven years old, trying to get kids to have their parents vote. I have followed every election since then, and this one by far scares me the most. I just wish that people would not look really at the person that is running but more of what they stand for. Not how charismatic they are in front of a crowd, but how they will be as a president of our great nation.
Humorous take on last night’s debates
http://www.blackidesign.c.....ebate2008/
-Jefferson
EricF, I will call you a racist not because of this thread. I’ve read a couple of your posts and there’s ALWYAS a racist remark such as “your homeboy Obama got this” and others. Why is it that those inner city schools that you speak of don’t have the same access as those white schools? The white schools have computers, new books, higher paid teachers, more magnetic programs and much more. But yet, inner city kids only get what basketball? 1 computer per class? old books? teaches that wish to be else where because they can’t feed their families with the salary they’re getting. Again how is it that it’s the minorities’ fault? Seriusly please enlighten me. what happen to those minority kids with a lot of talents and knowledge with no opportunity to pursue? How do they get helped?
American Citizens,
Want Bigger Government, Higher Taxes, Soaring Deficit, Civil Rights encroached, Politics as usual, Terrorist friendly Administration, and a Racist in Office, Vote OBAMA.
Want the opposite? Want True Change and a Maverick who will stand-up to the Big-Wigs, causing them to STAND-DOWN, Be independent on ENERGY, which would create Jobs and Reverse and soar the American Economy, Vote McCAIN.
If OBAMA wins, God’s Judgment and displeasure on America for disdaining Him and His Holy Word in our Laws, Family, Schools, Actions, Attitudes and Society WILL CONTINUE because Americans have not repented of their gross sins, (namely ABORTION, amongst many others) and for placing their trust in man and/or themselves and not in God and His Holy Word.
If McCAIN wins, God’s Judgment and displeasure on America for disdaining Him and His Holy Word in our Laws, Family, Schools, Actions, Attitudes and Society WILL NOT CONTINUE because Americans HAVE REPENTED as a Nation of their gross sins, (namely ABORTION, amongst many others) and HAVE ONCE AGAIN PLACED their trust in God and His Holy Word.
(Duet. 28:1-29)
(2Chr. 7:14)
(Psalm 118:8)
A PROPHET SPEAKS
Ironman,
Here, I will ‘muster a rational objection to 1 statement [you] made’…
“McCain has been seen and documented as refuting r[i]diculous allegations made about his oppone[n]t. Yet when confronted, Obama sidesteps the issue and refuses to lend a micron of good sportsmanship. How petty!”
Was it not McCain who, at a rally, COMPLETELY ignored an audience member who yelled out that Obama was a TERRORIST? Is that not petty? Is that not a serious infraction of decent character?
Look, you are just like everyone else. Seems to be a lot of selective memory and flat out lying all around the table. Both candidates have lied. Both candidates engage in extremely unsportsmanlike behavior. Don’t pretend like McCain’s sh$#t don’t stink!
And by the way, this is all coming from someone who may or may not vote for McCain. At least I can call a spade and spade and I don’t live in delusional land…
Please stick to the real issues.
Jennifer, I completely agree with you. The issue which may be the core decision of my vote is EDUCATION. All of my friends have either a bill higher than a mortgage or stopped attending college b/c its not affordable. What’s been done about that? oh by the way, I don’t live in DC so therefore the vouchers are out of the question for me and the other 50 states. Then what?
Nonya how is “your homeboy Obama” racist in any way? maybe you are just looking for something to blame your problems on. seems a common trait among liberals. you also buy into the bs liberal line of thought that somehow throwing money at the problem will fix everything. if someone is more interested in bangin hos, slangin rock or the latest fashion and they give those things higher priority over a education then that is their fault and no amunt of computers or textbooks is going to change that. when i was in school we didnt have computers or brand new textbooks but that didnt stop me from paying attention in school. the point is you have to want to learn. no amount of money thrown at the problem can make somebody want to learn. take it how you want. i mean holy crap you do realize that not too long ago there were NO computers! my goodness what did people do? i guess everyone ran around uneducated according to your flawed victim mentality logic.
I just looked up the first ammendment to make sure that I was right. what it states is that there will be no national religion, like there was in England at the time of the revolution, and that the government will not tell the churches what to do. It does not pertain to religious influences on the laws passed in this country. We were established on freedom of worshipping God and his principles, and it’s about time people realized this. I am a college student who has no classes on tuesdays and thursdays, and I am coming to my computer to check what you all have said about my comments, and each others. I am concerned about this country, and I do know what I am talking about. If I did not, I would not post it on the internet for everyone to see.
Ericf, you are more racist for not finding anything wrong with your terminologies. You said “if someone is more interested in ‘bangin hos’” can’t you prove your points without using “black slangs”? You’re right, you can only lead the horse to the water but you can’t make it drink. I agree with that 100% but maybe you should chose your wording very carefully because “if” you’re not a racist, you sound it. Just because you’re not using the “N” word doesn’t make it less racist. A lot of 3rd world countries do not have computer access and such but surprisingly their students are very educated and if not more that our students.
If your remark wasn’t racist, then please who eaxctly do you mean by “inner cities”? Because Hispanics, Asians and whites all fit that class as well. Unfortunately blacks are the majority in the minorities and therefore are targeted as the “cause” of the problem. Throwing money at a problem will not solve it, but properly funding the appropiate programs that cater to the need of the inner city minorities as well as the middle class and the upper that is what Senator Obama is speaking about when he says we have to use a scalpel we can have a one size fits all policy/policy makers. We have to address those issues that are particular to that group and yes, lack of school equipments, suppliues , and properly educated and certified teachers is a problem and those things do need money because no kid wants to open a raggadey book and try to hold it together while reading it. What that does is discourge the want to learn but I also must say that parents are the key to all this nonsense.
Oh and by the way, I’m not looking to “blame my problems on others” as you nicely put it for me. People need to take responsibilities of their own actions. What do you see when you look in the mirror? a blue eyed and blonde world? Hmmm?!?!?!
Dale– You mis-used Supple and demand. I have read your statement twice. Tax revenue it what you showed. Has nothing to do with Coperate taxes. Which is the highest. And indivualls pay the corparate taxes when they buy the product. Just as I said in my comments. You could not supple class gap definition or example, only something close. As economic educated person, you should have been using economic terms as I was. Dale, I have given my reasons for doubting you.. You have not dispelled my statement. As far as U.N. RESOLUTION, I read your article. It is ambiguous. And does not outlaw the war. Any member of Security Council could have vetoed it. And in diplamatic circles, it is a go.. There is no need for us to comment with each other any more. If I forget and respond to you, just ignore me. I have my personal opionion of your economic knowledge.
Why do u think minorities tends to fail schools? Think a step back. Their parents’ educations? Think further >.< Yes, it is because of their opportunities in society. If imagine they have the same living standard, income, neighborhood, …etc, do u think minorities will have a better social value hm? Will they still fail schools and become unproductive citizen? This is why you stick money in poor neighborhood and take money from rich guys to let people have equal opportunities. Wouldn’t you agree?
I think a more interesting point about taxes is that so many corporations get away with not paying them:
http://www.reuters.com/ar.....12?sp=true
Any outrage about that here?
While I’m at it – what do people think about a flat tax? I thought that would catch the public imagination more – if they were truly against this spread-the-wealth notion I mean.
Wow Rachell M!
“It is only right for the wealthy people to pay more taxes than the middle class citizens due to the simple fact that they can afford to pay more.”
What kind of rationale is that?!?!
So humor me for a second…
Let’s, for argument’s sake, pretend that you are in college (who knows maybe you are) and you are a diligent student. You study and work really hard to maintain your 4.0 GPA. Me on the other hand, I joined a sorority
and decided to attend a few parties instead of studying. At the end of the semester I had a 2.5 GPA, but the university thought that wasn’t really fair and so they decided to take a few GPA points from you and give them to me. Sounds good huh? In our little imaginary scenario it sounds pretty good to me, but I’m guessing you aren’t too happy about losing some of those hard earned, precious grade points that could help you get into that coveted law school you were working so hard to get into. You see my point? Of course raising taxes on those who make above a certain amount of money sounds appealing to those who make less. Why wouldn’t it?!?!
Try and be just to all when you are considering voting and not just to yourself.
Jennifer,
I wish you would have left sororities out of your comment. Sororities aren’t just a bunch of partiers. I am in a sorority and we have a lot of girls with 3.0 + GPA’s. I do, however agree with you on the subject of taxing the wealthy. They shouldn’t have to pay a higher percentage of tax just for being successful.
See a joke for what it is. I was in a sorority too thank you. That is not the issue. Hmm, this is what you get for trying to add a little humor to your analogy!
I have been keeping close attention to all the debates, interviews, commentaries, etc, made by both candidates. I’m sorry to say that McCain’s time has passed. The times of fear stayed in the back, Americans need hope and changes. Please check the fact, please read the laws and decitions McCain stands for and the ones that Obama stands for. Please think of the great possibility of Palin being the next president of the United States if anything happened to McCain. Please people think!!!!. Please check Omaba’s background, what he stands for, his youth, his vision and all he has accomplished in such a short time. McCain will be more of the same that has driven the country to the financial crisis we are in. Please think of our kids that are in the forces, like mine. How many times do they have to send our kids to wars, before they get killed for no reason.
Think, re-search and Vote.
Safe my son’s life!!!
Thanks,
Lucy
Dearest Jessica,
I too am a Christian woman and read your post early this morning and feel your torment and frustration. I am not one to normally respond to someone else’s post in a thread as I believe that we each have a right to our opinions, but I prayed on this last night and as a direct result of those prayers am compelled to answer you thusly:
All of your arguments are based on this:
“You have to find the person that God wants for the position, because after all…that is what our country was founded on”
Our country was not founded on God, it was founded on the Constitution and the Bill of rights.
We became a country because we wanted to be free from imperial taxation.
In respect to government and religion the Constitution states in the First amendment:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
Also, as for the election of officials and religion, Article XI of the Constitution:
“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
This first Amendment gives EVERYONE the right to practice their own religion. There-fore laws based on any one religion would be a violation of the Constitution.
In other words, we have a right to our religious beliefs, but our belief that morals based on religion should be a factor in how a public official serves his country is against what this country stands for. If we elected ONLY Christian officials, who pass legislation and make decisions based on Christian law, they are in violation of the constitution as it would be forcing Christian beliefs on non Christians. All matters addressed by our government must be made based on fact, and science, not religion.
As a Christian, I understand this as a protection of one of the most blessed gifts the Lord has given us: free will. By forcing your beliefs and will on others is a direct affront against God. As a Christian, and through my personal relationship with God, I have learned that the best way for me to minister is through my actions. By living a life where God is an active part in how I present myself I give testimony to him. If someone asks how I have arrived at this peace, I will share it gladly, but God has taught me to respect all beliefs as they are all tied to him in different ways and we are not to be privy to his entire plan until we are reunited with him in heaven.
My He bless you in all your future endeavors.
I wonder why obama never salutes the flag? why would we want a PRESIDENT WHO DOESNT SALUTE THE AMERICAN FLAG????? AND ABORTION IS WRONG… ITS NOT HTE BABY’S FAULT.. GIVE IT LIFE!
nonya&pig -
the only solution is to break the cycle and create a better environment, thats something you can throw money at but you have to set rules and ENSURE THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED. thats the only way it can ever work. i have put alot of thought into this. im not a racist at all but think what you want. i think its wrong to call people racist at every drop of a dime. thats just my opinion though. i think people will do better if their surroundings are better.
Jennifer,
About the well-known fictitious situation of the good and bad student. It is easy to extrapolate yielding good GPA hardly earned in school to taxes issues but the situation is not that simple. Have you been to Europe? To Scandinavia, more particularly?
I live in France, I have worked very hard as student and continue to work hard now. Let me tell you: the French social system subsidised half of my rent as a *foreign* student. Then, married to a jobless wife and with one child I paid, for many years, a ridiculuous (low) amount of taxes. Latter I even benefitted of more subsidies to rent a really nice appartment for low-income families (yet I am a scientist). Kept working hard, always. My wife eventually got a job (scientist too) and we eventually had a house built.
Now, we together pay about 12 times as much taxes as I used to, 7 years ago. I think this is nothing but fair. I benefitted of a social system to climb the steps, combined with hard work. Now, I pay back for others to climb up to. That is how socialist (not to confuse with comunist) countries in Europe, especially in Scandinavia, have made more even the quality of life of majorities. It works well.
Of course, it has an evil side. No system’s perfect. Many people abuse the system too.
Anyhow, I do not think that taxes issues are as simple as you put it but I understand your point.
Nonya, I don’t know EricF, and I don’t know you, but the term “homeboy” is one that is bantered around my neck of the woods commonly among young people. I think if we searched for it’s origin it’s a term used BY african americans, not by whites, although it’s evolved into a common term used by most of them – white or black. Have you asked EricF what his ethniticity is? My grandson, who is 11 and white, uses the term among him and his friends, I noticed it at his birthday party at the skating rink a few weeks ago. Maybe EricF uses it the way you think, maybe he doesn’t. But you shouldn’t assume to the point of calling him a racist.
I find it amussing that republicans are suddenly so vocal about the change that McCain would bring. How is that possible? This country has been on a downward spiral since Bush moved into the White House, and now we are going to “change” that by putting another republican in power? McCain’s policy is nearly identical to Bush’s policy? That makes no sense! But I have come to expect empty Orwellian speech from Republicans. At least Obama can string together coherent sentences that mean something to the American people.
People,
For God’s sake! Leave God alone!
I am Roman catholic, I believe in God as many of you do. But c’mon! do you think God is reading all this? watching the debates of Obama/McCain on YouTube (as me) or CBS or whatever?
Any idea what’s the size of the Universe? Sorry to disappoint you but the USA is totally immensely insignificant in the dimension of the Universe. God did not found the USA but a group of smart visionary guys. I am sure God has better to do.
While issues such as abortion, carrying guns, death penalty, war, etc. are largely debatable on a moral basis (yet need to define moral) in the context of the campagin all these aspects reduce to a strictly socio-political character. God will not judge you for voting for one or the other guy because one wants to retrieve your troops from Irak and shift them to Pakistan or bacause the other is against abortion, etc.
Politics is a manhood thing. Fundamental social, financial, geo-political issues are at stake for you guys in USA and abroad so don’t loose focus!
Babs
There is way more evidence of presenting EricF as a racist than that comment right there.
He has a hard on for blaming the entire economic crisis on Black people. No matter what you show him he will say the same thing.
There are black people who are racist towards black people too.
You can twist and cherry pick the housing crisis to be focused on blacks only.
I advise everyone who finds EricF offensive to just ignore him. he says this stuff on purpose to anger minorities. His disregard for contrary evidence to his “its blacks faults” raises my eybrows.
It is the equivalent to the Holocaust deniers. They all know the Holocaust happen. Their challenge of it is only used as a method of attack on Jews. They know it’s not true. Just like Eric knows it’s not true that Black people are the responsible for this problem.
Jennifer,
I have to say your annalogy comparing grades to income based taxes is completely outlandish. First of all you are assuming that people who make less money don’t work as hard. That is simply not the case, what about people in professions that pay poorly despite requiring a high level of education. I for instance have a masters degree but cannot find a job in my field (which has recently moved to requiring graduate course work) that pays more then 60K yearly. Now is it fair that my brother who has simply a four year degree but makes well over 200K should pay similar taxes? Why do people assume that hard work is the only factor in wages?
Jennifer,
I cant remember anytime in recent past a campaigner dealt directly with a disruptive individual. On either side.
So at least be real if your gonna try and come at me with something.
http://www.latimes.com/ne…..?track=rss
Please read carefully, and acknowlege the captions.
Dilusional world?, yeah there is one out there,.. and some folks are in it.
You obviously havnt read many of my post, or you’d know my views on politicians.
Your objection is without merit,… wanna try again?
Sorry,.. I shouldnt be so provoking, but I am following your lead.
Dreadsen,
“He has a hard on for blaming the entire economic crisis on Black people.”
This is also a phrase used by blacks, does this make you a racist? I think not.
Who has the uncensored version of the debate? I heard one clip in the radio this morning and both the candidates use curse words all the time.
High taxes is not the only factor for and entrepreneur to wind up business. There are many factors like labour, competetion, location, market, political stability and many more.
I find it really interesting that we all have different oinions. This election has been by far the most intense, in my opinion.
All I want is to live the American dream. I want for our coutry to be a safe place. I don’t want to have to worry about paying medical bills, paying too much for my classes or gas. I want to stop living paycheck to paycheck. I want to be able to buy the dream house I’ve always wanted. It’s funny how in just a few years those plans can fade away due to the failure of our government. (Again, this is just my opinion, so don’t attack me here)
I believe Obama is the better candidate for the job. I might not trust him fully because, come on, who trusts politicians?lol. But he seems more interested to try and fix the problems that most concern me.
Tai, I don’t know what you heard on the radio, but no such thing happened in the debate.
Pudding, you said
“They’re against abortions because they class it as killing.”
Abortion is taking away the life of someone who has the least say in it.
Well I have a question for all you liberal pro-abortioners out there. HOW CAN YOU STAND UP AGAINST THE WAR BECAUSE OF THE DEATH TOLL OF 4,000 TROOPS AND SAY THAT THAT IS TO MANY DEATHS WHEN YOU SUPPORT THE KILLING OF MILLIONS OF THE MOST INNOCENT LIVES OUT THERE BY COMMITTING ABORTIONS? HOW CAN YOU SAY THE ONE THING ABOUT DEATH AND THEN BE FOR ABORTION.
WHY IS IT THAT YOU LIBERALS ALWAYS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD, AND FAITH-BASED DECISIONS?
Lastly, these poll numbers everyone shows do not mean anything. Polls always show a democrat ahead until the election day when it is close. Look back throughout history and you will see this to be true.
GO TIGER GO !!!!! FROM ONE SERVICE MEMBER TO ANOTHER. And yet no one here has responded, but honestly I haven’t finished reading the posts.
There are too many people reading things put out by the Republican party. My vote was simply going to go to the demecrats or no one at all. I did all kinds of research and checked both candidates on there facts or lack of. I have decided to vote demecrat, and I have never voted before. I vote for someone who is:
1. Gives the people hope again. He sheds a postive light.
2. Smart
3. Understands what I’m going through and how my family struggles.
4. Speaks in a way that doesn’t sound like political jibberish.
5. Will stay consistant
6. Is not prone to think by use of anger
7. Surrounds himself with people who will encourage him to do right by the American people.
8. Has a ginuine love for his country and his family.
I’M VOTING FOR OBAMA!!!!
Now why I WILL NOT vote for McCain:
1. Way too much negativity. [There is a difference between personal attacks and political attacks]
2. He admitted that his grades in the past, 5th from the bottom, would have been failing by todays standards. Would you vote your failing class clown for president? Look at what Bush did and he was a “C” student.
3. McCain hasn’t been through what the majority of Americans has. The fact that he even thinks that helping big businesses without assisting the American people is a good thing is down right stupid. Bush thought the same thing….um, do you see any help?
4. He scares me with the hatchet thing. There are many programs that do work, should those be cut off as well. I agree with Obama in that the programs that work but are struggling need to be revamped, the ones that are garbage need to be scraped. That should free up alot of money there as well.
5. Pork-barrel-pig-nuts-ham-salami and cheese. I’m not a politician. I don’t want to hear political slang. I want to hear what’s going on in plain english, and what to do about it in plain english. I think that is part of the problem with many McCain supporters. They get tied up in jargans and misunderstand what he is talking about. If you agree with the realities of his campaign then that is ok, but don’t go quoting un-facts [new word].
6. How many different economical plans did McCain come out with? I rest my case. Even if Obama didn’t say there were things to be cut out, I rather have a president who believes and will make every attempt to follow though than someone who changes his mind at every tern.
7. Everyone knows that McCain has a temper problem, and these last few weeks have shown that. And anyone cheering for his offensive ways need to re-evaluate themselves. This world has enough negativity to go around already.
8. PALIN!!!! That’s all I’ve got to say.
9. For such a MORAL fella I don’t see how cheating on his wife is such a good thing. When you see Obama and Michelle going off the stage and such, the go together. McCain leaves his wife in the dust everytime.
I have been pondering who I was going to vote for all summer. I had been doing alot of digging and research and had come to the conclusion that if I was going to vote, I would be able to be solid behind my choice. It bothers me to see so many people still writing things that get said on the attack ads, half-truths from the campaign trail and debates, and crap from partisan newspapers and networks. I started my quest for some simblance of honesty on the candidate websites. Not just the one that I chose but the opponents as well for a decent understanding of what there plans are.
I’m not pro-abortion, but I feel that some things are between a person and God. Please understand that the adoption system is in a crisis as well. I work for social services, I know it. I’m not for guns in cities, if you live in the country and choose to use one for hunting that’s up to you. Guns on the street are mostly guns stolen from individuals with permits. Not to say anything for children injured or the alarming number of people [noncriminals] going off the deep end and killing themselves and others]. And lets not forget the campus killings.
Anyone who seriously does there homework knows the Iraq war was a farce. We shouldn’t have been there. We had support in Afgahnastan, but when the U.S. deviated elsewhere we were on our own. DOES ANYBODY REALIZE THAT OUR OWN ALIES HATE US. We need to have someone in office who can bring our nation back into favor with other countries. FUNNY THING IS MCCAIN IS NOT WHO CAN DO THAT, THEY CAN’T STAND HIM. Do your reading before responding.
Even though Obama would be taxing the rich, he would be providing incentives to the companies who BRING JOBS to the United States. Most small businesses don’t make more than $200,000 a year within their first 5 years, but then again, even they would get incentives for creating jobs.
The middle class is fading out. Pretty soon it’s going to be rich and poor. Trust me, most of you won’t be joining the rich.
Look to each his own, but before you get on here spouting garbage and calling each other out, please get your facts straight.
IF YOU DIDN’T GET ANY OF THIS UNDERSTANDING DURING THE DEBATE OR AFTER READING THE BOOKLET ON OBAMAS PAGE VS MCCAIN’S PAGE PLEASE GO BACK AND READ AGAIN.
TO YOU WHO THINK IT’S NOT WORTH IT TO HELP OTHERS IN THIS COUNTRY, HOW CAN YOU THINK ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE IN OTHERS.
I was active duty and now I’m a reservist. I love serving my country and protecting my family and way of life. Anyone with friends who are in the military who think the war was a good idea, let them know they are the minority. We are there trying to clean up the mess we made to save face. We went in and left them people torn down back in the ninties and we went back again. Now we have to stay and clean up the mess before everyone really turns our back on us. But this was not a humanitarian effort.
“ECONOMICS”
In last nights debate, the moderator indicated that independant studies concluded both parties economic policies would put us farther in debt. When questioned only one canidates response offered any hope of overcomming it.
They both want to do the same thing, they both are going to prop up our economy with with new energy technology.
But only one of them is going to put in stop gap measures imeadiately.
They are both correct that energy technology will be a vital part in creating new jobs and giving this economy a shot in the arm.
However, one of them proposes increased govertment spending and taxes, while the other is saying goverment allready has to much.
And I am fairly tired of the “McCain is another Bush” rhetoric.
Get a clue,..The word Republican is an Ideal, not a paticular person being used as a monicker for that particular party.
And Stella Nova,..
In cased you missed it both parties have been drifting towards each other with concepts they are now willing to embrace, Its where the phrase “republicrats” sprang up from.
You should read up on politacal history.
Throughout the years many presidents supported ideals that were not commonly understood to be affiliated with their respective party.
A progressive Republican was actualy the first president to try and implement universal healthcare. It wasnt the brain child of the left.
There is one thing that is most interesting that most of you are not realizing……..
OBAMA will be our next President!
You know it like it or not. I have never heard so many stupid people in one place at one time. Thankfully some of you are smart.
Some of you say give more to the rich, some compare taxes to school grades, some of you base your whole decision on one single issue not even realizing that you have to take some bad with the good because no candidate is right on everything. Some of you still defend Bush, some believe that the Iraq war was a good thing, and some of you will vote for McCain knowing that you will be stuck with Palin.
The sad thing is not the issues that we are up against but rather that fact that we have so many people who can vote while being ate up with stupid the whole time.
Sorry to the McSame team……you lose! Aint it funny….LOL
Obama/Biden ’08
Obama/Biden ’12
i dont really care what these liberal fools think. i really dont. they just look to change the subjectinstead of dealing with reality. Dreadsen knows thats not what i said, not even close. this is what libs do all the time. they take a statement and twist the words around to fit their agenda. in their rush to place blame and condemn they fail to look fairly and honestly at what people say. look at dems in general, you really think they are all such compasionate people? we know thats not the case. they exploit for political gain. they know by making repubs out to be racist they can get the black vote. they dont REALLY care in general. im not saying none do but the overall motive is political gain. thats really pathetic.
people follow blindly mr.obama but do no research into the actual issues. if you do even the minimal research you would see that it is financially impossible for obama to do what he is saying. it is so obvious he is just telling people what they want to hear.
Eric F
I gathered a 93 page report on the candidates and their views. I included there records and what they say along side what they have done. I did my homework like very few have. I dare say that you have not even done that. I have a book on these issues put together by my own research. No biased opinions were looked at while I put this together so that I could make the best decision on who to vote for.
Proper research led me to Obama against my initial thoughts. I found that in the beginning I had some of the same biased thoughts of Obama running through my mind but I was smart enough to do my homework and give them both an equal chance. In the end it is clear without any doubt that Obama is the best choice given who we have on the other ticket.
You always talk about the Dems or liberals and label them as a group. No doubt you have made no effort to do your homework except to use your own biased views to lead you blindly through this deal. Your comments label you as stupid. To be honest it would be easy to say you are but I don’t know. Maybe if you knew more about the subject and unpluged your TV you would have a chance to make a smart decision.
Don’t preach about research when it is so clear that you have not done yours!
Obama/Biden ’08
Obama/Biden ’12
Bill the second article was ambiguous, the first was not, it was categorical. But you didn’t read it, clearly. THERE WAS NO UN SUPPORT FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nobody has yet to provide any more EVIDENCE for anything they have said against my arguments. Anybody can just spout a party line, that’s not evidence. Saying I don’t have much love for America, that’s really weak. Everybody here is showing their love through free speech and the desire to improve the world through their own little piece of involvement.
I did not misuse supply and demand! Supply and demand are effected by just about any economic event, especially taxes! If you want to claim college level understanding then show it. My main thread made it through, please read it and the reference I used to explain how taxes effect supply and demand. If you don’t understand it, that’s not my problem. I still don’t understand why you don’t get what a class gap is, but I DID provide a reference for that. No it’s not strictly an economic term.
Yes, the reference I used is about actual tax income that’s true. According to Wikipedia your corporate take rate is the 3rd highest in the world. However the article also illustrates how difficult the actual rate is to quantify because of the massive amount of regulation and loopholes.
The real tax rate is what is important, what that is exactly is hard to show, but showing that your country doesn’t actually collect much tax by world standards was my way of getting at that. That’s not a rock-solid reference I know, but it’s more than you got.
I’m not a socialist, that’s dumb.
And please if you any capacity to answer a straight question asked of you 3 times, riddle me this, again, please:
I know the arguments against a tax rise for the wealthy, my point, is that they can apply equally to a complete abolition of all taxes on the rich.
If you don’t advocate that, how do you make your case that a small tax increase would be so catastrophic?
Please, finally, answer the question, anybody, if you can.
Nikki,
I want to thank you so much for your post. You have optimised what can be so great about religious people and religion in modern times.
I don’t want to denigrate anybody else, but it’s great to hear from an educated religious person with a tolerant, open-minded perspective, thanks.
Do you really need to write that crap at the bottom of every post U.S.A. What is this like a damn ad or something.
This site has been overtaken by the loons of the leftwing. I am out of here.
Osama bin Biden ’08
Osama bin Biden ’12
The last thing I will ever say on here is this, John Sidney McCain has had a life destined for glory like no other, he survived the fire of the U.S.S Forrestal, He survived being a prisoner of war in Hanoi for 5 1/2 years, he became a senator, he ran for president and was betrayed by his own party, he was down and out in the primaries this year and came back, he has been down in all the polls in the general election, but has faught back JOHN SIDNEY MCCAIN’S DESTINY IS NOT YET FULFILLED, A MAN WHO HAS OVERCOME SO MUCH HAS TO BE DESTINED FOR GLORY LIKE NO OTHERS AND I BELIEVE DESTINED BY THE ALMIGHTY God, one man who has truly served our great country his whole, will be our next commander of the shining city on the hill and that man is:
John Sidney McCain! The man truly destined for the White House.
I’ve been very dissapointed with these debates. The canidates do nothing but cut each other down, mainly Senator McCain.
Discuss the issues that are relevant to our future. Don’t cry about Obama’s negative campaign ads, or how McCain supports George Bush’s economic policies (we know this).
It would be nice to have a president who is smarter than us again. John McCain is a tool, and Palin is a nut. I really hope that those two don’t represent the best the Republican party has to offer this country. I really cannot understand why people are scared of Obama becoming president when you have McCain/Palin as the alternative.
mrssteak2001,
There some fundamental flaws in your reasoning that are kind of at the core of some of the alarmist misconceptions about Obama’s tax plan.
If your business turns over more than a quarter of a million, but then expenses, payroll, rent etc. are taken out, your Taxable income is far less.
That means under Obama you would pay less tax, not more.
It’s a very important distinction. Your feeling was that Obama is trying to hurt you when the opposite is true, he’s fighting for you.
I would advise everyone to take a lead from U.S.A, frequent visitors will note he/she can be a harsh critic of Obama, but through education has come around. Not everybody will of course, which is fine, but if you don’t really understand the policies, how can you vote on them??
Educate thyselves, and ye shall be saved, long live the democratic process!
STOP THE IGNORANCE,..
Why do you propigate something contrasting your nick name.
You make an opening statement that you compared the records of both canidates,.. and based on such you will vote Obama cuz he seems more warm and fuzzy to you.
And that you wont vote McCain because you think hes stupid, hes just like the Bush,.. and he hes not a very nice man.
Everything you throw out is an emotional plea to deride or discredit opinion, or in some cases fact.
Its ludicous to think people in cities or anywhere shouldnt have the right to bear arms.
Its a proven fact that when an armed scociety disarms the first thing that happens is violent crime and murder increase dramaticly. Ask anyone in Austrailia how they feel about that.
You make sweeping statements, and claim post here are rooted in ignorance, that they are just responses to debates or spin doctors.
Regardless, the only issue you really addressed in depth isnt even a real issue.
No matter of who gets in, companies moving to other countries because of taxation is pretty much insignificant in relation to rebuilding our middle clsss working force.
Wouldnt you agree?
I think most people here are smart enough to figure that outsourcing jobs and illegal imigrate workers are the number one reason for the loss of lower and middle class jobs.
This Country has been plagued by welfare since its inception during the great depression. There is a better way,.. its not as cofortable as a sugar daddy, but its the only real solution. Fix the issue that started the problem!
Using the the McCain or Obama campaign page as a sole guildline to make judgement is a mistake. w
I would go further and say it would be prudent to include and view reports from non partisan watchdog organizations as Mr. McCain has suggested.
To be so dismissive of Palin isnt a good sign either.
There is no one in this campaign thats more in touch middle class America than her.
Of course there is the Democratic counterpart who’s going to be looked to for guildance in foriegn affairs?!!
Chicken little,.. remember him? “the sky is falling”!
Ironman,
Your points about gun violence are 100% correct, take it from an Australian. Arguments that say criminals will get guns anyway is absurd. Of course some will still get guns, but the percentage drop is HUGE. The percentage of violent deaths goes down by a LOT.
On your other points, Obama wants tax breaks to companies that keep jobs in the US, and a removal of tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas. What’s McCain’s policy? Does he even have one????
People of America.
Can’t you see that Obama (as well is McCain) telling you Lie?
For example this super CAR that going to be produced in United States and NOT going to be produced in South Corea? How is that happen?
If south corea and japan as well as some european countries is already far ahead of US automobile companies? What is stoping Japan to produce those cars but twice cheaper? This is not going to happen.
About taxes for company. McCain always mentioned Ireland with 11% taxes but what about countries like India where company have 0% taxes? How they are going to beat that?
Oil? This is another topic to laugh. If US stop buying oil from Russia ,Venezuela or Iran does it some how affect thous countries and their wealth? No no and no.
All those countries just simply sell oil to china and other oil consumer countries. And china will produce goods that going to be sold in USA that makes USA indirect buyer or Iran oil. That’s the circle and you can’t escaped it. And yes again they continuously saying the same things over and over again escaping the direct answers (like oil reduce percent during 4 years).
** Nuked by Admin **
Note: No profanity please, thanks!
You Americans are a strange breed, all so afraid of taxes. Look towards Scandinavia – Denmark, Sweden, Norway, I guess they have high tax rates and still they get top scores on the HDI-Index (U.N measurements of a countrys literacy rate, living standard, health, BNP, and so forth). Taxes are important if a society wants to take care of its weakest members, to even out the differences between rich and poor, and to help out the people that charity and voulenteer-work doesn`t reach.
In Europe we admire your strength and we are grateful for your sacrifice in horrible conflicts, especially WW2 and Afghanistan. We hope that the economy will be better, and it will when Obama becomes president. He is the man America needs, because America has to take care of its weakest and poorest.
obama_sucks
Osama Bin Biden? your just like McCain! You start to lose a debate and you say something like that! You think that is funny? Grow up and be a mature debater!
erik,
Are you aware that world health shows that Norway was a higher death rate per capita than all us crazy underinsured undertaxed Americans that drive like maniacs while packing firearms and starting wars?
Eugene,
You made some great points and in principle I agree. I disagree about 1 point however.
The reason the US don’t produce fuel efficient cars is because they haven’t wanted to, not because they can’t. Their emission standards don’t require it, so they don’t. I recently saw an interview with the head of GM about their new electric car, it was very clear in the interview he didn’t actually believe in global warming. The electric car is about demand. If US citizens decide they really want fuel efficient cars, they’ll make them.
erik, great to hear from another proponent of fair taxation. Unfortunately what seems to be the case is a culture of somewhat selfishness that doesn’t seem to care too much about the less fortunate, which is odd for a mostly Christian country. What would Jesus really say about that? They say they care about the poor out one side of their mouths, yet blame lack of motivation and desire out the other side while not wanting to pay any taxes that might go to the less fortunate.
Ironman, one statistic does not dispute an entire argument, especially not the entire HDI-Index. I recommend you look at that here. A proper understanding of that might give you some insights into democratic philosophy.
Hey wow, Australia is number 3!
Dale,
On the issue of removing guns from scociety.
It is allways done on the premis of public safety, and many times may be seen as a noble cause.
Violent crime and murder allways take a dramatic hike imeadiately after, and yes, after a few years a well policed scociety has drops in violent crime that are below those numbers before taking firearms out of the community..
However,.. this has proven to not allways be the case.
One of the other things that seems to occur after disarming a scociety is that a percentage become enslaved by political factions.
the vast majority of violent crime in this country is committed within impoverished areas of big cities.
Rather than taking away yet another right of the American people, we should be asking ourselves a question that has nothing to do with firearms.
The question should be, how can we help raise these people up so they can lead decent and respectable lives, so they may enjoy the fruits of their labor, and realize the American dream for what it is?
WELFARE OF ANY KIND IS NOT THE ANSWER!!
It destroys motivation and reduces ones level of responsibility. STOP SEGREGATING!!
Put the people to work! If you have a job,.. you have purpose!
We can send the military in to the ghetto to try and take all their guns, causing even more hate and division, or we can give them hope. We can give them quality education, and put em to work rebuilding America.
Impoverished areas would be the greatest place to recruit the working force to rebuild America. What if the goverment put in place a program something like “work for housing”.
And it was targeted directly at the folks in the worst financial condition. You’d be offered a job in something like the “energy buisness” You might be doing anything from building pipeline to working at a nuclear facility. But you would be working, and you could buy a house you could afford on your income. If only 20% of those eligble got on board it would be a huge success. That would be twenty percent less wefare burden, 20% more tax base and twenty percent fewer individuals likely to commit violent crime.
Sorry for rambling, but thats the kind of thing I’d like to see since it actualy addressed the problem at one of its roots. Thats where we need to go.
What has that to do with either of the current presidential choices? Sadly very little.
I’m also hip that one statistic isnt a viable argument,.. the response was cavilier.
I do not know where you got your history from, but people first came here for religious freedom. In Europe there were countries where there was a set religion for the entire nation, and no one had any choice. When I was referring to that, I was talking about how people mistranslate the first ammendment thinking that religion should not matter when it comes to government. I do not believe specifically that religion should come into the picture, but more of the moral beliefs and acception of right and wrong that comes with religion. When our forefathers wrote the first ammendment to the constitution, they were trying to protect churches from being bossed around by the government, and being told how to worship. And I must say that if you believe we should not have morals in government law, then why isn’t murder legal? why is stealing against the law? It is because we believe that they are morally wrong!
I’d like to add one other thing erik,
You think its odd that we Americans are obsessed with taxes,..
You’d be concerned and unwilling to go for more taxes as well if you wernt being represented!
History was mentioned here,.. what birthed this country was a revolt against taxation without representation!
What do you think is happening now? our tax dollars are being stolen from us right in front of our faces and there seems to be nothing we as citizens can do about it!
Every man woman and child in the United States just went in debt something like 6,000 dollars to bail out mismanaged companies. And what did the low life SOBs do as soon as it went through?, they tossed 400,000 dollars straight down the tubes so they could have a little R&R.
Have they been forced to give back the money? is anyone being punished? HECK NO!! they steal from us and pass the savings on to themselves!!
The system is rampant with corruption and lack of accountability Greed and self interest are what drive most of our goverment.
Obama is far from the person this Country needs. If we get him, I dont think people who are supporting him now will be quite so eager to to jump on that wagon 4 years from now.
His affiliations and the way his money move prove his interest. He WILL NOT reform Washington,.. he will put on a happy bandaid and preach the gosple of positive change while he strips our freedoms and FORCES the middle class to become the “welfare sector”. He will side far left in his apointment of the supreme court, and this countries moral decay will continue.
We will literally be in a modern day Sodom.
How then will Jesus view that?
my comment was messed up, I was talking to Nikki…I am sorry if anyone thought that I was talking about them. I put that in but it somehow got removed. sorry.
hey everyone, McCain is on Letterman!
Dale,
Here is my opinion about fuel efficient cars and new energy technology. They are advertised like silver bullets, the one which can solve all the troubles.
With all respect after 8 years off one of the candidate staying in White House. When next presidential campaign is going to be live the next silver bullet would be something like new land on Mars or Moon.
And if we speak serious here is my opinion. Us for the last 200 years was in a head of Wold innovations. And in order to remain number one country they need to realize some facts. Like economy is global by default and you can’t stop job-outsourcing. It’s not just a tax issue. We need to keep in mind that information technology done a huge step in progress which make this outsourcing happen. In order to keep people employed in US the need to always search for new spaces in Market.
Green technology can be that case. But what exact technology can create that market? wind, solar? NO it’s already everywhere in the world and US can’t benefit from that. But from Thermonuclear energy they can. If they can push forward study and considering they have so many research centers and scientist. There when everyone can benefit from US education system.
Eugene,
I agree 100%, I was merely making the point that the American people don’t want fuel efficient cars or else they’d make them. I really do agree. Job outsourcing will continue to happen more and more, especially for jobs that require only basic training, it’s been happening in production for years and is now creeping into other sectors. I work in IT
and my company office is 3000km away.
Ironman, your arguments about gun control and education are somewhat valid, but even the constructive elements I could ascertain are much harder to implement. You’re talking about massive social change and really economic change. Gun control is much more straightforward. Why, please, does anybody in the city need a gun? It just doesn’t make sense.
a percentage become enslaved by political factions
What does that even mean?
Increased social security and a fairer tax system do not lead to a welfare state, or else that would be the case for the rest of developed world which has better social security than you, and that’s just not the case. Your arguments are based on fear, not fact. For every proposal there are many countries that have already implemented them, look to them to get your opinions, not your own fears or Fox News.
The Republican obsession with Obama apparently shady associations are BS. They’re propaganda, which is really just another word for marketing. Redefining the “guilt by association” tag into “judgement” is a marketing tool. Some of McCain’s preachers that back him said things like 911 was because of gays and abortion (that’s from memory and not 100% right). It’s easy to make those types of associations with anybody. Obviously Obama’s dodgy associates will be left wing, which obviously the right will find alarming, but the opposite is true for McCain and just as alarming.
Interesting stat: Even at Wright at its peak more people found McCain’s association with Bush concerning than Obama and Wright.
Ironman you said:
You’d be concerned and unwilling to go for more taxes as well if you wernt being represented!
History was mentioned here,.. what birthed this country was a revolt against taxation without representation!
If you really feel that’s true then why not fully analyse the policies. I don’t know your income but given that there’s a 95% chance your taxes will be lower under Obama and taxes is a major issue for you, that might be a good place to start…
I though your policy about work for housing was amazing. Not because it would work, it’s been tried elsewhere and failed. Mostly because of the bureaucracy it would require to run. Hate to tell you mate, but that was a VERY socialist idea. If new energy projects are started they’ll just create jobs in the usual way. All the good effects of your plan carry through, that’s just what you get when you increase govt spending and investment, it creates jobs.
IRONMAN,
You missed my point. It is just absolutely surprising to me when people bring up a fault that applies to BOTH candidates but they selectively chose (a little redundant phrasing but trying to make a point) to highlight only one candidate’s negative action over the other depending on which candidate they are for.
You made the issue that Obama ignores certain inappropriate statements made about McCain.
I simply responded that McCain does too.
ANTONIO,
I understand the issue of taxes are an extremely complicated matter. Why else would we all have such different views and theories? I also apologize for offending anyone who works very hard in some of these less glamorous professions that are just as, if not more, important in nature (i.e. teachers). My point in my oversimplified analogy is to expose the unfairness of the theory that just because someone works really hard (and no it is not just working really hard but many other qualities such as being a good and wise decision maker, having a good sense of timing, etc.) that they should be punished. I DO believe that teachers, firefighters, police officers, and many others in professions of service should be rewarded more for the intrinsically altruistic professions for they help support the fabric of our society, but NOT at the expense of someone else who honestly and fairly used their good wit and intelligence to secure a good lifestyle for themselves and their families.
“Why, please, does anybody in the city need a gun? It just doesn’t make sense.”
ok you move to the city and when your house gets broken into by some crackhead and your family is in grave danger you will wish you had a gun.
i see others here saying the rich need to do their part and help the less fortunate. i would ask these people if they know what percentage of total taxes in America are paid by who.
http://www.ntu.org/main/p.....p?PageID=6
i would say the top 5% are doing way more than their part. DO RESEARCH BEFORE YOU POST NONSENSE. on top of the taxes being paid they are also the ones that are creating jobs for Americans.
seriously, stop making lame excuses and accusing people of not doing their part when thats obviously not the case. instead of complaining maybe you guys should do some research like i keep saying and find out the facts or talk about real solutions instead of just saying throw more money at the problems. whats wrong with asking people to take a little responsibility for themselves instead of expecting government to take care of everything?
also Norway is a horrible example because they are major exporters and have a low population. more money coming in and less people to worry about.
EricF,
I expected that answer. You’re more likely to kill a family member than an intruder. That’s fact. Why would you need to shoot the person anyway, intruders run when they see people, they very rarely attack, and are rarely armed. You don’t need a gun for that, you just like the idea of shooting an intruder. Your arguments are fear-based, not logic-based.
Personal protection is a pathetic argument that gets thrown around like it’s some sort of hail Mary. It’s BS.
Just because you want a gun, doesn’t mean you should own one, in fact most of the time the reverse is true.
Your statistics about taxing are interesting, but of course rich people pay more tax, they make more money. What amazes me the most is that 50% of people make less than 32k! My god that’s minimum wage here!
Half your country makes less than our minimum wage! A McDonalds worker here makes more than half your country. That’s not even a manager, a McDonalds manager is in your top 25%!
Mate that’s bloody awful, all you’ve proven is the class distinction, and that’s an argument for higher taxes, not lower.
Dale
I am researching now for a commentary based on the tax myth which both candidates and their supporters peddle around. Both sides don’t know what they are talking about. When it is done i would like your input since from what i see you ACTUALLY know about economics more then some people who have bought into Kevin Trudeau politics.
As far as Guns go this is the problem i have with a lot of democrats, McCain and Obama when it comes to gun control ( gun owners association gave McCain a “F” grade for gun rights). Criminals here will ALWAYS get a gun. No way around it. They will get one. Also we have home invasions here quite often and no one does a home invasion unarmed. Now knowing that they WILL get a gun i’d rather have one myself. Because there is nothing worse than a one way shooting.
I have a friend over in Australia who works at a train station sweeping he makes like 50K a year. Actually all the folks i know over there arent struggling and have just regular jobs. I guess that’s why we don’t have a large population of Aussies, Danish, swedish,etc. they get here and realize that they’ll starve if they don’t have a PHD. And your mcdonalds folks flipping burgers make 32K!! That is why we need a living wage for people. Ralph Nader talks about this often. People want to eliminate welfare but don’t care that you can not live on minimum wage. There was a time where two people with entry level jobs could take care of a family. If they correct the minimum wage problem and increase the number of jobs THEN they can complain about people on welfare. But right now the few people who are still on welfare keep food on the table and their bills paid. The people on minimum wage have to live with their parents lol
lol Dale anything to try to make a point. truely pathetic. you seem to forget that alot of people work part time or barely work at all. most importantly however is…
Note: AGI is Adjusted Gross Income
http://en.wikipedia.org/w.....oss_Income
For the 2006 tax year, some examples of the deductions from gross income allowable in computing AGI include:
Certain business expenses of reservists, performing artists, and fee-basis government officials;
Health savings account deductions;
Certain moving expenses;
One-half of self-employment tax;
Penalties on early withdrawal of savings;
Alimony paid;
Deduction for contribution to an Individual Retirement Account (IRA); and
Student Loan interest deduction.
The above list is not comprehensive. The deductions allowable in arriving at adjusted gross income should not be confused with itemized deductions such as home mortgage interest expense, medical expenses, property taxes, charitable contributions, etc. For a complete list of deductions that help you compute your AGI, see §62 of the Internal Revenue Code
so once again you fail to do any research but instead try to make people out to be victims to try to make a point that you know nothing about and refuse to research.
DALE = PWNED
You shouldn’t own a gun if you don’t know how to use it. You can’t just decided you are going to buy a gun to protect your family, maybe take a little half-day gun course and then stash it away in a place a child can get to it. That is beyond irresponsible.
I believe in the right to own a gun and let me tell you why. I hope I never have an experience with an intruder with the intent to harm or kill, but if that does happen then I want to be able to have a chance to save my life, my husband’s life, and my infant child’s life. No one should take that right away from me.
Now, let me get a little doomsday for you for a second. I honestly believe the concept of civility hangs on a thread. At any given moment (not over long periods of regression) we all can resort to barbarism. Look how some people respond in major disasters. A man was stabbed at a gas station in Houston after hurricane Ike, over gas! Look what happens during riots. People break into stores, pharmacies, and homes and wreak havoc. You take away basic needs (and in my example not so basic needs) and people can resort to some pretty nasty behavior.
Protecting what is dear to me is my decision and if that means owning a gun so that my 5’2″ self can stand a chance against an assailant, then I should be able to legally.
Eric, I agree with you that many blindly accuse the top 5% as not doing their part. Yes, they create jobs for the masses so they can go home and put food on their table! And government has means in place to entice many of these corporations and wealthy individuals to give back to the community. I like the idea of getting a little tax break on top of the taxes I already pay because I decided to give money to a local charity of my choice, giving back to the community in which I live in instead of it going to some program of the governments choosing that may or may not have any value and may or may not have been supported by some lobbyist with ulterior motives. These people support your economy in which you live in, provide your jobs, and give back to your communities. Stop blaming them for all your problems!
About 3% of Americans claim to have been abducted by aliens, I think it would be good if they weren’t allowed to own a gun.
Dale,
“a percentage become enslaved by political factions
What does that even mean?”
I was sent a copy of some stats about a year ago that dealt with gun control since somewhere around 1900, as I remember the credentials were good, I’m trying to find it,.. (I’m not the most organized person) one of the things I found kind of suprising was that several of the societies that disarmed were oppressed by a dictator, or political faction shortly after. A religous faction would be sunni’s, a political faction would be democrats,.. does that help?
As soon as I find it I’ll post the source.
Why does anyone in the city need a gun? I would say the folks in the city need one far more than those in the country.
My grandmother kept a revolver in her night stand, and I’m glad she did.
My brother and his family lived right above an appartment complex where there was a shooting almost every week.
When I went to visit him I was armed.
Jennifer,
apparentley we both missed each others points,
that happens when trying to communicate,..
The point in my original post was to show that McCain has openly tried to halt and refute the wild acusations against his opponet, and when given the opportunity to do the same for McCain, Obama was unwilling to do so. Which seemed very “petty” to me. I think I was pretty clear on that.
I supplied evidence to support my position which you are unable to refute, which lends credance to my assertion.
Your reference to an out burst didnt really seem pertinant to the issue since its a bad practice for any public speaker to acknowlege disruptive individuals. Even with that in mind your point is moot as the reference I made is confirmed.
Any attempt to portray my original statement as being “designed” to mislead is at best an error in judgement on your part based upon a preconcieved notion.
I hear alot of talk about taxes,.. am I missing something here, or is the real problem a constant decline in the middle class work force of America?
I mean if you have more workers you have more money circulating right?
Its like trying to get more out of the cart without a horse to pull it. I know that sounds pretty folksy and may offend some Palin h8rs, but it seems fairly simple to me.
And I would have to agree with nzpudding on that 3% thing,.. lol
, if you read my 1st post, it said “…I’m calling you a racist on various posts”. I know the word homeboy is used by Latinos, Whites, whoever…but does your 11 yr old uses the terms “bangin hos, n bling blings”…Eric seems to only be able to prove his points using “black slangs”…oh and I’m not surprised you missed his ““Why you isolated it to minorities is questionable though.”
because the inner cities, heavily minority populated is where these failing schools come from. saying my answer is questionable is the typical liberal response and it completely ignores the real base of the issue. ignoring the problem with pc answers has moved this country in the completely wrong direction and has never solved any problems. i guess you cant understand that seeing as you are not from America. does that make me a racist? i dont think so, i think it makes me a realist.” So I guess it is the minorities fault that the education system stinks right? And my next post said, “‘if’ you’re not a racist well choose your wording carefully cause you sound racist”…but anhwho, I guess according to Erci, “liberals are fools” and ONLY Republicans are smart…I mean after all THE MINORITIES ARE IDIOTS, right Eric?
Nonya
“So I guess it is the minorities fault that the education system stinks right?”
why do you think the education system stinks? i dont think it does. please tell me what you base this on.
“liberals are fools” and ONLY Republicans are smart…I mean after all THE MINORITIES ARE IDIOTS, right Eric?
not all minorities are liberals. why would you think they are? i think liberals have convinced a large part of the black population that republicans are all evil racist or something but we know thats not true and we also know that liberals use this strategy for political gain.
Nonya i think you need to open your mind.
http://www.nbra.info/
gee Eric, thanks lol. Seriously I don’t think republicans are evil lol. I was just going off by your statements lol. and yes, the system stinks. When your youth can’t attain school without the fear of debt, it stinks. but thanks for the link though lol, I’m sure it’ll show me the liberals true colors
So many goods points for both sides of the fence. Several have made points regarding the cost of health care & the lack of education. My question is in your opinion, what is the reason for your high cost of health care? And why is the education lacking in your opinion?
Nonya
Well when people go out of their way to constantly blame minorities and blacks for something that is a bi partisan political error what would you expect them to think?
when someone completely attacks one group then claim ” oh i just trying to wake you up to what the liberals are doing”
It gives you a real understanding why Malcom X taught people not to trust the government at all.
I guess anyone wouldn’t be surprised looking at some of the language from certain individuals on here from various threads and posts on here that a particular political party is stereotyping a group as bad.
Talk radio isn’t helping either. Take ANY of the right wing talk radio guys and type, “racist”, after their name in a search engine and look at the results. Then take liberal talk radio name and do the same.
I agree. I’ve seen a couple of posts and said nothing because everyone has the right to their opinion. But when you go as far to say “because the inner cities, heavily minority populated is where these failing schools come from. saying my answer is questionable is the typical liberal response and it completely ignores the real base of the issue” an find nothing wrong with it is beyond me. I had to respond but that was my last waste of energy on this. You’re right Dreasen, ignoring is best
“I had to respond but that was my last waste of energy on this. You’re right Dreasen, ignoring is best”
ignorance is bliss
of course Eric you’ve proven that over and over
Wow how lively!
EricF, your education system is among the least effective in the developed world, that’s fact. Look at the HDI.
lol Dale anything to try to make a point. truely pathetic. you seem to forget that alot of people work part time or barely work at all. most importantly however is…
Are Republicans actually capable of having a discussion without personal attacks? That is by far the weakest form of argument. Of course some people don’t work, that doesn’t mean it’s not significant that a McDonalds worker in Australia makes more than half your country. What was the point of your post anyway? Obviously there’s a difference between gross and actual salary, everybody knows that, what kind of point is that??
I don’t know what PWNED means, but good luck with that.
Gun ownership is a big part of your culture, and the fear associated with the connection to guns is probably the biggest part of the problem. Every person who refuted my post cited fears as their primary motivator for gun ownership. Fear is NOT a good motivator for a civil society on any issue, least of all guns!
Ironman, comparing Sunni and democrats, that’s just silly and irresponsibly alarmist. There’s a big different between the developmental level of most middle eastern countries and the US. Jennifer if your country resorts to barbarism, guns will be the least of your problems.
Now EricF, Ironman, Dreadsen et al. here’s your data. After our first major gun shooting in generations, our government implemented massive gun control. Many many people cited the same fears that all of you have cited, but they went ahead anyway. People were scared Indonesia wanted to take us over, government wanted to control us etc., there were many, many more. It was alarmist propaganda and at the time I bought into it (I was only about 16 or 17 at the time). My fears were irrational and wrong, and I’m sorry to say, so are yours. Here’s a reference showing the results: Gun deaths in rapid decline since buyback.
Gun deaths took an instant drop, and continued to decline.
Dreadsen your assertion that Criminals here will ALWAYS get a gun I’m sorry to say is a misunderstanding of both the criminal mind and basic economic principles. If you reduce the supply of guns, you reduce the amount of guns, of course. Reducing supply makes getting a gun harder, and makes the black market cost higher, which will make it more prohibitive for many (probably most) criminals. Also, the “black market” is not something most petty criminals, the kind that rob houses and steal cars have access to.
More evidence from your own country: Gun ownership correlates to gun deaths. The title says it all.
Ironman, Obama did refute the statements, if you want to get petty, why didn’t McCain refute Palin saying “he pals around with terrorists”. Anybody want to claim that wasn’t out of line? You must have known that was coming, this exact exchange was in the damn debate.
The biggest issue I see with most of the posts that disagree with my views is that just about every one cites fears as motivators. Fear is a great motivator if you want to control others, but a terrible way to make decisions, ask any poker player.
I’ve analysed many policies and there is nothing in them that hasn’t been tried in other countries. You can research any policy and find out how it will probably effect you by looking at the world around you.
Dreadsen, aside from gun control which we can agree to disagree about, I really respect your desire for independent thought and I’d be happy to help you with you post. I’d love to see Babs’ input as a small business owner. I’d love to see how the tax proposals would actually effect her business in real, tangible terms.
I’d also like to reissue the challenge that nobody has yet had the guts to attempt. It’s looking more and more like no one can take it, but if you can’t take this challenge, your tax arguments must all be wrong.
All arguments posted here, and McCain’s too that argue lower taxes on the rich can also apply to not taxing the rich at all. If taxing the rich and so bad and so economically unsound, why tax them at all?
I look forward to somebody, hopefully, finally accepting the challenge… please?
So Dresden, basically we can’t make decisions based on fear? So I fear that I might get in a car accident so I put on my seat belt. Is that wrong? It is a fact that people break into homes. This isn’t the elusive weapons of mass destruction. It happens and I have not just a right, but an inalienable right to protect my life, period.
As for guns, legally reducing the supply is not the answer. There is always a person motivated by greed (not requiring massive amounts of incentive either) to turn a blind eye or help facilitate obtaining arms. When it comes to the black market…if there is a will, there is a way. And do you honestly think that petty criminals can’t figure out how to tap into that black market? It may reduce some of the violent crime, but not enough to convince me that I will never be attacked or have my home broken into.
Dale —
Not quite sure I understand what your question is…please re-iterate………
I’d also like to reissue the challenge that nobody has yet had the guts to attempt. It’s looking more and more like no one can take it, but if you can’t take this challenge, your tax arguments must all be wrong.
All arguments posted here, and McCain’s too that argue lower taxes on the rich can also apply to not taxing the rich at all. If taxing the rich and so bad and so economically unsound, why tax them at all?
I look forward to somebody, hopefully, finally accepting the challenge… please?
Jayne, I’m late into the argument, but was this your challenge?
“My question is in your opinion, what is the reason for your high cost of health care? And why is the education lacking in your opinion?”
If so, I’ll be glad to take it.
The high cost of health care – and it wasn’t long ago I’ve said this here – is due to a domino effect. At the bottom, consumers can’t afford the high cost of health insurance premiums. The premiums are out of line because of the health care system’s monoply on the exhorbitant amounts they are able to charge us and our insurance carriers for health care. The drug companies are guilty of the same. When we are able to create some competition both in the health care field, and in the insurance field, we will be able to knock down that monopoly because insurance companies and health care providers will be forced to compete for consumers business. More clinics is a good start – not the solution, but a start. Recently I had occasion to visit a pilot clinic that is run by the major hospital in the area. For 2 minutes with a physician who knew why I was there because I told them, I paid $142 essentially for a prescription for antibiotics that they knew beforehand I was coming for. It was a saturday, and I was referred to the clinic by my dentist. Was that ridiulous? You bet. Can we stop those sort of fees? You bet.
Education – yes, we have the lowest quality for the most money of anyone in the world. We have handed out teacher certificates as if they were coupons and we’ve gotten exactly what we deserved – a country full of teachers that prove really teaching is above their pay grade. Throwing more money at the system won’t work. McCain is right, we reward good teachers and help bad teachers find another line of work. Obama wants the teachers to tell us if they’re bad or not. Get real. He has this opinion because he’s supported by the teachers union, a composite group of some very good teachers, and a lot of bad teachers. He’s beholden to them. The education system has to be reformed, and that means stepping on the toes of a lot of those union teachers. The alternative is charter schools, and that’s where our children get the best education. Using charter schools in combination with reform of our public schools is the answer.
I’m from England and am 17. I think Obama is in many respect the solution to America’s problems. He does harp on about change a lot, but that is exactly what he will bring and that is what America need. Many people have commented on abortion and being god-fearing. This god fearing and even obsession is a big problem with what drives America, I am an Atheist but have no problem with religion, each to his own. But in America too many people mix politics with religion and thus don’t see the more important issues because of their God fearing. It will be a historic and truly brilliant day when Obama is elected, McCain is certainly the least conservative of the republicans, but he will be four more years of Bush.
The show was good Mccain looks a
mess.Obama rulezzz.
American folks:
As that Norwegian Erik guy said. You guys are a strange breed.
You know what? In general, I feel closer to a socialist system, European/Scandinavian way yet I do value religion, believe in God and am against abortion. All this to say, that I prefer Obama but, after a second thought, after reading all about your fears about taxes and McCain’s policy on them; it’d be better for everyone that McCain wins:
In the US taxes do not serve health care, education, social development as much as making war all over the place. My silogism:
McCain = less taxes
less taxes = less money for war
McCain wins = less war
I know it’s fallacious, unfortunately.
PS. I did find funny the term “Obama-Bin-Biden”
Osama bin Biden ‘08
Osama bin Biden ‘12
This forum is full of opinion, but it seems few spend enough time researching before flooding pages with factless supositions.
Dale,
I will acknowlege that you have your own opinions and obviously perceptions.
Please explain at what point there was a “comparison” of sunni’s to democrats,..
They were examples of “factions” presented for your enlightenment since you didnt seem to understand what a “political faction” was.
You will noticed “religous” preceded “political”
I reasoned by putting out something perhaps more recognizable to you, your understanding of the second term would become clear.
Judging from your response I’m still unsure you grasp the meaning, but your probably close enough for a general understanding.
The point made in the original post was to indicate another aspect of disarming a society. How you view the statement, or what it means to you is geared to your perception.
Dont try and make it mine!
You chose to make the comparision between the two examples, rather than the subject matter, and tagged on a label of being “irresponsible” and making “alarmist” statements.
I can forgive your perception as being misguilded.
If I followed your lead in this, I would be questioning your intelligence.
If your going to characterize an entire group of people for what you precieve to be an attack from one,.. you sir are being irresponsible. In addition considering the tone of your response to the “faction” thing I’d dare say your skirting hipocracy.
Lets all be big boys and girls, and play nice,.. ok?
“ON GUN CONTROL”
I’ll preface in that it appears you’ve never spent any amount of time in parts of LA, Oakland, New York, Miami etc.
I say this because you appear naive in your peception of crimminal behavior in the United States.
You have asserted that “fear” is the major motivating factor for a refusal to disarm. I will not dispute your statement, but I would guess the word fear might be unduly attached in a lot of cases.
For the sake of your argument however, lets assume you are correct, that fear itself is the motivating factor.
It is unrealistic, to expect one not to fear something that should be feared.
It is also unrealistic to expect one to be unable to defend themselves.
Now let me give a “comparision”.
If you live in Alaska, and you want to go to the garbage dump,..you would be smart to be armed. Why?
Because the bears love that place.
If your meandering in the wilderness you’d better be armed.
Is it fear or good sense,.. insert whichever one you want for your argument,.. it makes no difference because being armed would be prudent since there is some thing out there that is likely to attack and kill.
The Bears in Alaska are not like the ones in the lower 48. They dont fear you.
Also if you live close enough to them, there is a very real possibility they will break into your home. If you happen to be there at the time and unarmed, the possibility of you becomeing another statistic is astronomicaly higher than if you have the ability to use “deadly force”
So you have a couple options, you can avoid the bears by staying away from where they are, once again insert fear/good sense as the motive, or you can be prepared to deal with them should they choose to attack.
If I live in Miami and I dont want to be killed by predatory individuals I have the same choices.
You made a point earlier that one statistic wasnt a valid point for an argument,.. Since we are discussing two different countries with two different cultures lets address the one that you wish to sell your bill of goods on.
“AUSTRAILIA”
In previous postings you agreed 100% that violent crime rises dramaticaly after an armed society is disarmed.
You went on to say that as the guns are taken out of society less criminals have them,.. and that crimes committed with guns are reduced.
In addition you made a post that presented 1 statisc showing the decline in gun deaths. Try to remember the issue we are discussing isnt the number of gun deaths,.. but the commiting of violent crime, criminals ability to arm themselves, and taking away an individuals right to protect himself against such.
Let me show you what information I have found
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/
http://www.aic.gov.au/pub.....ndi61.html
http://www.worldnetdaily......E_ID=21902
http://www.worldnetdaily......E_ID=15304
Now then would you care to reinterate with a plausible argument?
I found wealths of information on the subject, and even found error with my belief regarding the ratio of societies that violent crimes actualy decreased after a period of time.
At this point I would say your agument has been debunked if you cannot produce compelling evidence to the contrary.
It is noble to aspire for peace,… but an abhoration to victimize society for ones ideals.
“ON TAXATION”
Dale said;
“All arguments posted here, and McCain’s too that argue lower taxes on the rich can also apply to not taxing the rich at all. If taxing the rich and so bad and so economically unsound, why tax them at all?”
This really makes no sense other than arguing for the sake of argument.
Are you advocating no tax for the wealthiest?
or,.
Are you asking for an explanation as to why lowering taxes on the wealthy is a good Idea?
Or is there another point that I have missed?
On a last note,
“BEING PETTY”
I am not provoked by adolesent chides.
My reference was to what I percieved as petty. Originaly refered to as a lack of sportsmanship.
Which is still unrefuted.
Just saying “yes he did” is meaningless if you cant provide proof.
Provide substantial evidence that Obamma openly and publicly refuted the wild acusations about McCain, and I will withdrawl my statement and openly apologize.
Babs….got you reply…will post later on that.
In the mean time, here is a link to both parties views on the FAA and aviation…..this is an important issue that has been on going for awhile. It seems to me either Obama has to experience with this area, is ready to tax the crap out of general aviation or lastly, doesn’t care. I’ll have to say this is another plus for McCain here.
http://www.aopa.org/featu.....c_sect=tts
Ironman, you’re making a comparison between Alaska and Miami on the right to bare arms or not?…LMAO that’s too funny.
nzpudding,
the comparrison was to address the root issues,.. I often head there instead of dancing around a bunch of meaningless BS aimed at drawing attention away from the point.
If you fail to see the analogy, I could explain.
The Alaskan wilderness was used because the dangers are present, and undeniable. Also the course of action is undeniable.
I could use any Big city with an impoverished crime ridden area.
But since Miami was used lets stay on that.
Would you dispute that parts of Miami are dangerous?
Would you dispute there are human “predators” that reside in those areas?
Would you dispute that many people try and avoid certain parts of Miami because its known to have such individuals?
The physical location of an individual has nothing to do with the right to protect yourself, and I have a feeling your aware of that.
Early on in this conversation the difference between being in the city, or being in the country was brought up. My point has illustrated that both have “predators” and the course of action remains constant.
Hope that clears it up for you.
One more thing,..
Dale,
you were pwned!!!
Great American Democratic System.I don’t care about who will be the new president ,only enjoy the process of American people’s voting that not exist in China.
chill Ironman, and relax.
There’s a reason why teasers and pepper sprays are invented.
Ironman, I don’t disagree about Alaska, it is a wilderness and people do need to ‘protect’ themselves (not mindlessly hunting wolves from planes though) and also the possibility of Russia invading
I have nothing against people having guns for hunting or sports, but carrying a gun around for the sake of it because it says you can from a piece of paper over 200 years old isn’t quite right.
By the way, what does pwned stand for? is it an acronym for something?
Ironman,
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi.....11HINF.DTL
‘Sen. Barack Obama on Monday rejected the comments from a leading Democrat and campaign military adviser who diminished Sen. John McCain’s service as a naval aviator in Vietnam when he declared, “I don’t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.”
As Obama delivered a speech here on patriotism that tried to defuse attacks on his own background, he responded to the remarks of Wesley Clark, the retired general and onetime Democratic presidential candidate, who suggested on CBS’ “Face the Nation” on Sunday that McCain had not been tested as a wartime commander.
“For those like John McCain who have endured physical torment in service to our country, no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary,” Obama said. “And let me also add that no one should ever devalue that service, especially for the sake of a political campaign – and that goes for supporters on both sides.”‘
Now it is not as outrageous as refuting your opponent is a terrorist but correct me if I am wrong, that kind of rhetoric is not being exchanged about McCain to begin with. The seriously dangerous character assassinations are being made against Obama not McCain and I would hope McCain would immediately refute all serious claims, not just a couple. I just think it’s awful that people are making their decisions on who to vote for solely based on an erroneous notation that Obama MAY be a terrorist or MAY have ties with Al Queda. This is not a real contest between opponents capabilities to preside over our nation when people’s fears are being tapped into – and not real fears like people breaking into your home
Am I missing something outrageous Obama turned a deaf ear on? I’m living overseas and trying my best to stay in the loop
On a side note, I came across this article. I’m not familiar with newsmax.com so not sure about its credibility. If it’s true, I am terrified of McCain as a president! So what do you do when you want to vote Republican but you are mortified by both Republican candidates??? Anyone else having this dilemma?
‘McCain’s Out-of-Control Anger’
http://archive.newsmax.co.....0548.shtml
Ironman,
I want to start by saying I’m sorry I said you equated Democrats and Sunni, there’s a lot to read in this thread and I didn’t reads yours properly so I’m sorry. You can attack my intelligence if you want, but I simply misread and I’m sorry.
Jennifer, the personal attacks and vague associations coming from the Republican camp and surrogates such as Fox News are designed to mislead and invoke anger and fear. It’s one of the major propaganda techniques used by all the major propagandists in history from Stalin and Hitler to Castro, and… George Helbert Walker Bush. I suggest you take a look at Outfoxed, it gives a pretty thorough analysis of the techniques and their application. You can view the interviews from it for free online here.
It’s interesting that you got that article from newsmaxx, they’re a strong right wing proponent. McCain isn’t very popular with their base though, and given the date published, July 5, 2006, it might indicate the motivation for the article.
My reference to Obama refuting the statements was straight from the debate, it wasn’t a full retraction true, he did hold to the point that statements like “palling around with terrorists” were out of line, and I must say I agree. He did however say that comparing to a segregationalist was out of line. John Lewis himself came out very soon after and agreed he went too far. I don’t see what more there is to retract unless you think it’s fine to say Obama was palling around with terrorists, which I don’t. Perhaps you do, but don’t hold your breath for a retraction on that one.
I do think McCain should retract Palin’s statement, and I actually think he would sort of like to, but that would be political suicide and undermine Palin even more than she has already done to herself – that is mere speculation, no need to rebut unless you feel you really need to. What I do know is McCain never would have said that, it’s that kind of character that’s keeping in sort of in the race.
TAX:
Your questions about my tax question was right, and exactly my point. The point of the question is to illustrate that the ideal tax rate is somewhere between none and 100%, and nobody has any decent arguments as to where in there it should be. The arguments people are quoting are simply the right wing attacks which nobody using them actually understands properly or else they could answer the question conclusively, and they can’t.
Ironman,
On Gun Control:
I showed the correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths, and that partially disarming a society reduces gun crime. I noticed you didn’t really touch those points. To say I didn’t present a plausible argument is unfair, especially since you ignored the major points of my argument.
The article you found “Violent Crime in Australia: Interpreting the Trends”, the data was from before the Port Arthur massacre, just before the gun laws were introduced that dropped gun deaths, so really, I think it backs my viewpoint, not yours.
You said that I said, which I did: “In previous postings you agreed 100% that violent crime rises dramaticaly after an armed society is disarmed..
That isn’t true in every case, but I’ll take violent crime over gun crime any day of the week, but I’ll touch upon this a little further on.
You said: Try to remember the issue we are discussing isn’t the number of gun deaths. That isn’t what I was discussing obviously, but we can have a go at that too I guess.
You said
“I’ll preface in that it appears you’ve never spent any amount of time in parts of LA, Oakland, New York, Miami etc.”
Fistly, have you? Perhaps you have, perhaps you havn’t. The bear analogy is great for bears, country people often should have guns for bears, people are not bears, and the fact that you try to relate them is my point about the fear hysteria.
However you actually showed that Australia has more violent crime than the US. So to try to say I don’t understand violent crime because I havn’t been to the US (which I have actually) is contradictory.
What I do know is that I’m not actually safer if I own a gun. I’ll refer to Kellerman’s study which concluded, among other things that having a gun in the home made it 2.7 times more likely that a family member would die from a gun death. I will assume you’re familiar with this study. It was refuted reasonably, but not at all conclusively on the pro-gun site you listed here. Their analysis was reasonably fair, but obviously partisan and didn’t actually refute that owning a gun made it more likely a family member would die from gun violence. Removing risk factors helps, of course, that’s true for everything. It never actually showed major flaws in the argument.
Now you showed after the gun laws violent crime went up in Australia, which is true, it peaked around 2001. What you didn’t show was that all crime went up, mostly due to economic issues stemming from the Asian Economic crisis which had a massive influence on our economy. As everybody knows, and I think you’ll find out again very soon, a poor economy leads to higher crime.
Violent crime stats in Aus incorporate many factors, for instance: robbery and gun deaths are falling, rape and assault are rising. Assault is the major rising violent crime, and not surprisingly it equates very closely with the rise in alcohol consumption REF. Most violent crime stats are mostly following quite steady trends that were unaffected directly from gun laws, the only stat which was majorly effected was gun deaths, which is the bulk of my point.
My major point is a simple one, fewer guns = fewer gun deaths. That is not a complicated issue, fewer cars = less driving, fewer terrorists = fewer suicide bombings. I think even Bush supports me on that one.
Pig,
As soon as they develop a TAZER that can fire multiple rounds accurately,in rapid succession, and can pierce several layers of heavy clothing at 20 yrds I’ll consider trading in my revolver.
nzpudding,
So you support the concept that protecting yourself from threats to your life from predators in the wilderness is valid.
Interesting,…
you side stepped my questions about Miami, so perhaps you’ll answer this.
Would you, your wife or children, your loved ones, be any less dead if they were killed by an amoral sociopathic killer instead of a grizzly?
Before knocking that 200 year old piece of paper you might consider its the foundation that allows the conversation we are having. You arnt going to post your views about the north korean goverment on any website there.
When considering the right to bear arms, it would be important to understand the full purpose of such.
It wasnt written by a couple of half wits that thought it would be cool to pack iron.
Jennifer,
I am going to look later today and see if I can verify that article,..
Thanks for posting, I was unable to find anything so far that had indicated such.
As far as McCains alleged anger problems,.. at this point I dont know enough to say one way or the other,.. what I do know is,..
About a year or so ago I was fed up with a left wing spin media that critisized the republican party at every turn,.. and often put half truths,.. or even out right falsifications. ie, ruters and AP photo scandal.
Some one hooked me up with news max,.. at first I thought right on! but as time passed I realized they are the right wing extreme and conduct some of the same practices.
I found some very misleading info and ash canned my sub.
Another question for someone out there…
Can anyone explain the rationale behind the windfall profits tax when it’s pretty much agreed across the board that the US needs to reduce their dependence on foreign oil? So we ask for more production but then tax it more if production goes beyond a certain ‘acceptably profitable’ level??
Dale,
lets start over on the right foot.
I accept your apology, and there was no attack on your intelligence.
The inference was made to show how your response seemed negative.
Even in this aspect your response indicated you felt attacked because of the possibility your intelligence was in question.
Unlike many who throw the word stupid around at the drop of a hat, I would be hard pressed to ever make such a strong statement about someone.
I have met people in my life who have had very poor command of the lanuage, couldnt spell for crap and had almost no understanding of sentance structure,.. (which I struggle with at times) but their level of understanding the human condition, was amazing.
Rest assured I have no judgement on you.
“ON TAXES”
I personally dont see any reason to tax anyone at a different rate with the exception of the lower income.
The goverment needs be accountable and quit useless spending, at the very least, quit stealing from us and giving it to your “buddies”
We arnt in this mess because the people did something wrong!!
“ON GUN CONTROL”
You have made a lot of points and addressed many of the statements I made, To respond to all will take three pages and much more posting of links.
I’m going to summerize and condense
1. Yes I’ve been all over the United States and I have seen first hand the worst it has to offer, by appointmet I lived in several of those areas.
2. Yes American big cities are criminaly different than yours, just a small example,.. drive by shootings have never been common in your country, Organized crime and drug trafficicking are nothing on the scale they are here, and it goes on and on
3. Common sense tells anyone less guns means less gun deaths. The first and largest drops are accidental shootings and domestic disputes. This means that although the number of deaths related to guns goes down, it doesnt accurately reflect the actual number of violent crimes where a gun was used.
4,. On possible biased from reporting sources,… I purposly put differing views and added there was much more available in hopes others would pursue it deeper. I read through 20+ reports and concluded there was a small percentage that argued statistics were misleading due to social or economic changes. if you view enough you will see constants and drop in violent crime is not one of them.
For the last time.
The issue is not “number of gun deaths” the issue is the right to bear arms,.. and the justifications for doing so.
Since one of the justifications is self preservation,. Elimination of the need for self preservation is the only arguable solution.
Since disarming society has proven to be of no effect, if not adverse to reducing the need to protect whats dear,.. the point is again moot.
If you wish to establish a plausible argument to the issue please confine your argument to such.
Has anyone heard something about Iran making statements that they would not hold talks with with America without preconditions?
It may be a bunch of BS,.. I’m trying to get to the bottom.
http://english.farsnews.c.....8707210851
Iron Man- Yes, the leader of Iran said that. Refering to Obama comments.
A news media has re-visited Iraq and notice great chances. Iraq police and troupes are doing most of the patrols. Number of American dealth have dopped drastical. Violents way down. The U.N. agreement ends at the end of year. It appears new agreement is near. Role of American troupes soon will be back-up.
Bill,
I can’t help but question which news media said that, but if I had to guess I’d say Fox. I noticed you didn’t post a reference, which doesn’t bode well. Fox have been making claims like that ever since Bush declared victory like 6 years ago.
The reason I say Fox, is because I know you watch Fox, the reason I know that is because you thought the U.N supported the war, when the opposite is true. Anybody who follows politics as much as you yet still thinks that is a Fox viewer, no doubt.
I would challenge anybody who watches Fox to get a copy of Outfoxed and watch it. It’s important for any Fox viewer who considers themselves the least bit intelligent to at least understand what they’re watching, even if they continue to do so.
Ironman,
The Tax issue is a very complicated one, you still disagree which is fine, but I would challenge you to really look at other country’s policies and living standards a little more to get a bit clearer picture, you may just come around yet.
The right to bear arms is always tough because it’s a very strongly held view in your country. It’s a right sure, technically really “arms” could mean just about anything, including a nuclear weapon. You probably shouldn’t have that right. Moreover, just because you have the right, doesn’t mean you should. You agreed it would reduce accidental deaths around the home and dismissed it because you didn’t classify that as violent crime. We arguing different points, but at least I’m addressing yours. My point is though, if you can reduce gun deaths you should, whether you chose to classify them as violent or not, a death is a death.
If you wish to establish a plausible argument to the issue please confine your argument to such.
I did, but we were arguing different points anyway. My point was that less guns means less gun violence. If you have to lose your gun to make a drive by shooter lose theirs, I think that’s a sacrifice you should be willing to make.
Since disarming society has proven to be of no effect, if not adverse to reducing the need to protect whats dear,.. the point is again moot.
Disarming a society does reduce gun violence, I showed you that. Gun violence is of course, a significantly bigger issue than assault, or any other type of violent crime. Assault maybe can become the surrogate, but it’s a lesser crime. If somebody is that pissed they’ll probably still have a swing, but I’ll be glad when they don’t get the chance to have a gun instead. And I’ll definitely be glad when I stop hearing about kids accidentally shooting themselves because they found daddy’s gun.
Peace.
Dale– The U.N. approval runs out end of the year
Dale,
I have not refused to acknowelege your argument,.. I addressed it.
I stated openly that less guns means less gun deaths,.. I agree with your point completely.
Its just that your point doesnt exacyly have any bearing on the real issue as I see it.
“personal protection”
No one who has posted here has disputed that a person has the right to protect themselves their loved ones or their property. That is a constitutional right, and a basic natural instinct.
Lets say for the sake of your argument that every single gun in the world suddenly vanished,.. except for law enforcement.
Would violent crime be reduced?,.. NO thats a fact.
Would people still want to protect themselves?,.. YES thats a fact.
So what happens now? the same violent crimes are commited with Knives Baseball bats and axes.
Is society now safer? NO
Are less people going to die,.. maybe,.. but only because its harder for someone unskilled in combat to kill with a knife as compared to a gun. Accidental shootings would also be non existant.
Your solution is like cutting down the tree because one of the branches is rubbing against an upstairs window.
I do however believe 100% that a different system should be in effect for being able to own a firearm.
We wont let someone on the road without a drivers license because we know the danger,.. what the hell are people thinking letting someone own a weapon with out instruction and a license?
Before owning a weapon an individual should have to pass a basic but sound 4 week course on how to safely use and store a firearm. At the end of the course, you would be given a state examination just like applying for a license. If you cant pass,.. you must retake the class, (up to 3 times) and try again. If you fail on the third try you must wait 3 years before reapplying.
Firearms should have a certificate of ownership just like a car,.. if you sell the firearm it can only be to a licensed person or buisness, and you must fill out a sellers report. Anyone purchasing a weapon has 5 days to transfer tittle, weapons sold across state lines would require a federal aproval of the sale.
Anyone caught buying or selling firearms without a
certificate of ownership or selling “to” and individual without a license would be charged and serve a mandatory jail sentence on the first offense.
Possession of a firearm without a certificate of ownership would be punishable with a jail sentence on the first offense.
Now for as much as I support the right of every American to bear arms,.. I am equally firm that guns are not toys,.. and are to be handled in a resposible matter. They are a means of lethal force and the ownership of one should be taken very seriously.
If you cant be proven responsible, you have no buisness with one. If you have one and your not supposed to, or your not following the rules regarding them,.. the punishment needs to be a strong deterant.
If lanuage was submitted to aprove such a notion on a constitutional level, it must include a clause defining an irevocable standard that cannot be amended.
In other words the the standard must reasonably uphold that all naturalized Americans could reasonable obtain firearms, and that its criteria never be altered, since it could serve political interest. Personal protection is not the only reason we may be armed as citizens.
I really need to proof read,..
That way I could be “reasonably reasonable”
sheesh!
McCain is George Bush all over again.
Why are we doing this again????
Honesty people, stop talking about the Bible, it has nothing to do with the law. We are a multicultural and multi religious country and religion should have nothing to do with this.
I don’t care what the Lord wants us to do, he isn’t here. Obama is going to stop the killing overseas and bring back the priorites of America. We need education. ALSO WHAT THE HELL DID MCCAIN SAY ABOUT PUTTIG TO MUCH EMPHASIS ON WOMENS HEALTH?? Partial Birth Abortion is ALL about a womens health. If a woman is going to die if she gives birth it would be create the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people (Kant) if there was an abortion. I rather have a fetus dead, then a person dead.
OPEN YOUR EYES. Obama is our future thank god.
Dear Peter,
So you would rather have a president that is only quote “a man of heart and action”
Then a well educated, Harvard Lab president?
i guess you could Hoo-rah the whole 4 years of your presidency
opposed to using your brain.
Obama/Biden= all lies
McCain 2008
Wow, what a time waster: the time spent writing this article by the author, my reading it, and especially bothering to respond to it. However, I would like to point out that every group has it’s extremists who can’t contain their anger. Both sides have their constituents who don’t follow the moral and ethical lines of a true multi-party election system. There are probably criminals who would vote for either man, but thank goodness our democratic legal system keeps them from voting.
Honestly, McCain left a bitter taste in my mouth and I am a Republican. I am tired of filthy greedy corporate demons robbing me of my money. And Im sorry, but as a famous saying goes, “Anybody who makes more than $250,000 a year to themselves earned in it in someone else’s blood money. WALL STREET, STOP FLEECING AND RIPPING US OFF!
Enough, we need someone to look out for the little guy now, we have been trampled on long enough! Because of Bush and his ultra-facist policies, the middle cass has been transformed in the working poor, and the working poor into the impoverished.
Regulation is key! Time to put these white collared criminals behind bars, they get more “get of of jail free” cards than celebrities.
Do you know what $5000 tax rebate will do to insurance premiums? Insurance companies will just jack up the prices by that much more, I mean why not, they’re getting all of that money anyways if you want to insure your loved ones.
Do you know what school vouchers would do? Allow all the rich mommies and daddies to drive their rich kids to school in their Cadillac Escalades to the only good rich school an hour away, while the poor parents with no form of transportation will have to send their kids to the underfunded, unreformed local public school because the school bus only goes there!
Yea, nice job for adding to the “I could really care less about the less fortunate” platform you have been running on. If it wasn’t for us, who would deliver your pizzas, who would wait your tables, who would make your $5 coffee for you? Tough isn’t it? Guess you’ll have to rely on those “illegal immigrants” you hate so much.
McCain get out of the sack with the CEOs of Wall Street and banks. You’re just making it obvious now. You look angry, desperate, and pathetic. Too bad you have to be rude and constantly cut off your opponent just to make yourself feel better. VOTE HERE! VOTE YOUR ANGRY, STUBBORN, DELUSIONAL OLD MAN FOR PRESIDENT!
Obama/Biden 2008
True Obama might win but lets not hope it all. I am a minority, i am a Asian American and if i didn’t remember wrongfully McCain did something for this country. Lets ask ourselves what time had Obama did for this country!. I think we should stop criticizing the Rep. and grow up stop pointing fingers and blame each other Obama is OK but McCain has proven to server for this country so far. And for you hating people out there get a life.
In recent readings ( although I’m sure they all lead on false or accurate allegations) I’ve read about both Obama and McCain. I’m a registered democrat because my father, re registered as a democrat. He served 23 years in the United States Navy and the first thing he did coming out was become a democrat. I admit my father was a hard headed Military officer but his main turnoff to McCain believe it or not was that he became a prisoner of War which makes me…a god? Now not that I completely agree with that but I do think that McCain is a lot like our president in office today. He’s been known as hot headed and somewhat hypocritical (once again these are either accurate or false allegations) but I agree with this. It’s easy for men to throw abortion around as murder when you don’t realize that we women would gladly hand over the actual act of birth to you for a couple years. It’s easy to call a woman a killer is she chooses to give up an unborn life. But to be honest it’s a decision that most women have to make ALONE…it’s not everyday that a man steps up to his responsibilities and takes action. Thats not what life is like these days…Palin I though would make a difference for women as VP but on two different conferences she denied being a feminist than praised that she would def. classify herself as that. McCain and Palin are against many forms of insurance for women that need it….mammograms, pregnancy, abortion. I agree that women should have every right to make a choice about their body…if it’s something they are going through alone.
Obama is for helping people. In a time like now..of depression, paying a little more to help the consumers of your very business back onto their feet, doesn’t sound so bad…..
I’m up for a change…i feel like we’ll be delt the same hand as we’ve been if McCain is put in the white house
I don’t even know where to begin! Obama clearly has a plan laid out. McCain/Palin clearly don’t. Sure they keep saying that the economy needs to get better & that there need to be changes…we all know THIS, but what is their plan of action to actually DO something solid about it? How are they going to carry out these goals? McCain/Palin keeps saying that we need to “WIN” this war. I would feel victorious if we ended this war a.s.a.p! I believe McCain/Palin are just telling us sweet stories of promise & change, but are not really intending on changing anything. Haven’t we learned anything at all from the Bush administration? Come on people, open your ears & listen, & realize that McCain will only cause more problems for America!
Someone mentioned earlier about “picking your poison”, I do not agree with everything Obama says, but I agree with him on many more issues than McCain. When I weigh it all out & decide on the pros & cons of each candidate, I must say my scale tips much heavier for Obama. I read somewhere that someone said that it is a “leg up” to get Palin in as VP because she has hardly any foreign policy experience…Are you crazy? Im sorry, but I want someone in office that actually knows what is going on overseas, if Palin is VP it would be like the blind leading the blind!!!! Why have a blind person lead another blind person if there is someone available with site to guide them?
Most companies when hiring someone for a job will interview people & then decide on who has the best qualifications & attitude for the position (the best fit). Especially if the job position is one of major importance to their company. Do we want a VP with training wheels or do we want a VP that can maneuver the obstacles ahead without hesitation or falling flat on their face?
Both McCain & Palin are not producing solid answers or solutions for this country. They are wishy-washy & have me worried about what their real agenda is or how they are going to address major issues.
Palin is a great speaker & fun to watch…but when I go to sleep at night I want a VP who gets the job done, knows what they are talking about, not one that can side-step the issues with a lot of general chatter….being a showman & great speaker is wonderful…for a theater performer. But I want someone who knows what they are doing, esp for an important one like VP.
I want a President with plans, numbers, & knowledge to lead us, not someone with vague promises of change & no rough draft to present to us. Sure we know that we need change…we all say it, but just who is going to actually make a change? Obama/Biden have done their homework & have real plans to put into action & I believe will. Truth is do we really know what McCain has for a plan…except to keep the war going strong & offshore drilling?
We need someone who wants to end this war a.s.a.p. Just because Obama is not shouting from the rooftops he wants to “win” the war doesnt mean that he is going to wave a white flag. He will end the war with fewer casualties, but will not let America fall further into the fire either. We don’t need someone for President that is too trigger happy, we need someone who can assess a situation, act on it, & get positive results. Sometimes, one has better luck (results) with a little less force & more brains…outsmarting & knowing your opposition in most situations produces better results than brut force. Lets elect someone that will “think” before they act, but one who will not hesitate to act when a situation arises.
By the way I am registered as Republican, but will be voting for Obama/Biden this election. I look at the whole picture not what party they are (as my mom does…she will be voting McCain) & is basically just voting for him because she is Republican, not for his views or plan of action.
I vote for Obama/Biden this Nov. 2008!
One more thing:
EDUCATION
Some people have stated that more money towards education would not help much, but that it was the parents to blame. Another thing mentioned was that new books or computers would not help, that the kids will still not become a productive member of the community. & then there was mention that there were no computers 20 years ago & that the children that really wanted to learn would overcome & learn anyway. To these statements I reply :
1. Yes, the parents play a majority role, however, their education plays a huge role as well. If the children have newer books, have better supplies, & higher paid faculty…they will take more of an interest in learning.
Lets say that you were a teacher & were offered a job at two different schools…one school will pay a larger salary than the other, it is located in a better area, the benefits are better, and that school is not so understaffed (meaning smaller classrooms & more attention to individual students)- which job would you take? Probably the higher paid, more funded school. Right? Let me also add this, as a school, the school is more likely to offer the higher paying jobs to a teacher that is perhaps more qualified…providing the higher funded schools with better teachers too. With all of these things brought to the table, how is not giving more funding for education not important?
2. In reference to “not having computers 20 years ago” this is true…however we do have them now & many many jobs & a lot more to come deal heavily with computers & the knowledge of how to use a computer & the internet. So, if a school can not provide computers for the students to learn on & another school has multiple computers… which of the students will be more productive & land a better job? Certainly the student that has had the better education (which requires money to keep up with changing times & tech.) We need to invest more money in education!!!
Education is the key to our future. Have you ever noticed that people that have a better education fair much better in life & decisions. I had a pretty good education at my high school (it could have been better & could have been worse) but because I had the opportunity to recieve computer knowledge (though it was not a major part of the curriculum) it armed me better for life. I graduated 1 year early from high school too. My mom owns her own bussiness & it was hard at times, (father was not apart of my life) she worked long hours & I am an only child. I pretty much was alone a lot, but because of the teachers I had & the resources available I thrived instead of participating in negative activities. I taught myself to play the piano, I read a lot, I learned to type very well (something that really helped me to get a job at a younger age).
Bottom line is that it is a good thing to provide more funding for eduction!!