Obama launches new economic proposals in Ohio

Sen. Barack Obama today launched a new economic plan today which includes a few proposals including a 90-day moratorium on home foreclosures. Obama made the announcement while campaigning today in Ohio.

Report from Yahoo News:

TOLEDO, Ohio – Democrat Barack Obama proposed more immediate steps Monday to heal the nation’s ailing economy including a 90-day moratorium on home foreclosures at some banks and a two-year tax break for businesses that create new jobs.

With the economic turmoil weighing down his Republican presidential rival, Obama also proposed allowing people to withdraw up to $10,000 from their retirement accounts without any penalty this year and next.

The Democratic presidential candidate said his proposals, with a price tag of $60 billion over two years, can be enacted quickly, either through the government’s regulatory powers or legislation that Congress could pass in a special session after the election.

“I’m proposing a number of steps that we should take immediately to stabilize our financial system, provide relief to families and communities and help struggling homeowners,” Obama told a crowd of 3,000. “It’s a plan that begins with one word that’s on everyone’s mind, and it’s spelled J-O-B-S.”

Obama delivered his economic message in Toledo, a struggling blue-collar city in a state that could be critical to Obama’s presidential hopes. Polls show a close race between Obama and Republican John McCain in Ohio, which decided the 2004 presidential election. At stake are 20 electoral votes.

Obama also spoke to an Ohio voter yesterday and took some questions concerning how his tax plan would affect the voter as a small business owner:

I’m certain this will be a major topic at Wednesday night’s debate since McCain has vowed to pin Obama down on some things. Of course, I think he vowed to do that the last 2 debates as well, so we’ll just see.

  • I’m not shocked at anything this SOCIALIST says. This is the true Obama. Did you hear him say:

    “It’s not that I want to punish your success, I just want to make sure that everybody that is behind you, that they have a chance for success too. I think that when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

    You freaking SOCIALIST.

    This plumber that’s in the video didn’t become rich because b/c he laid around on his butt collecting a welfare check, no, instead he was the one out there thawing frozen pipes, unclogging toilette and whatever other gross jobs you and I don’t want to do. The man made money doing the these crap jobs and he deserves every penny he makes. It’s not Obama’s for the taking, but the idiot thinks it is. It’s ok though, Obama’s gonna ride in on his Unicorn waving his woowoo stick and make everything better by turning America into the socialist country he’s always dreamed of. Sometimes I think that fairy dust he carries around is the stuff he use to sniff.

  • EricF

    CG you are spot on. this guy keeps adding new spending everytime he speaks. where does he expect to get this money? he now says 95% of working Americans AND THEIR FAMILY will get a tax break. what does this even mean? why wont he be honest that its not a tax break at all, its a rebate and by his own words one has to assume that people that dont pay taxes at all will be eligible. obama is just telling people what they want to hear. pathetic that so many people bought into this without even looking at what they are supporting.

  • Grey

    You know, I have to be frank- I’ve seen a lot of conservatives bring up specific examples of people who become rich by working hard as a grounds to claim that the capital gains tax is unfair. That’s really flawed reasoning, and conservatives do themselves a disservice playing off logic like that.

    That being said, I would agree that Obama seems to be pushing for a bit much. It gives off the vibe of a political play- the positioning is strategically before the debate. With Obama’s ambitious plan actually set in the presses, McCain can no longer wow the audience in the economic sector, as he did in the previous debate.

    I think I’m not going to vote this election. I don’t like how either of them are handling this crunch time- anything and everything seems like a vie for attention. Both give off images of integrity, but I’ve seen little of it this election season. All I see is one guy who’s intent on beating a dead horse to dust and another guy who seems to be trying to sell you your own shadow. Sorry if that’s abstract.

  • Voice of Reason

    Frankly, I think its a bit disturbing that people are attempting to hide their selfish anger by claiming “socialism” as though that is even some sort of evil word or idea. Yes, Obama’s economic plan does incorporate socialist ideas. However, I am not ignorant and this does not bother me one bit. Republicans can stamp “socialism” on Obama’s forehead all they want, but his ideas are good and they will help those who really need it. I would appreciate it if people would admit that they are simply selfish and don’t care who is suffering and can’t pay their rent as long as they have their own. I would rather live in a socialist country than a selfish one.

  • “I would rather live in a socialist country than a selfish one.”

    Then why are you here? America is a capitalist nation, we believe in individual responsibility, not government subsidizing everyone, as it’s currently doing.

    You’re right though, I am 150% selfish that the money I EARN belongs in my pocket, not yours. Why should you get my money when I go earn it everyday and you sit on your couch collecting my paycheck? Now who’s selfish? Get off your bum and get a job, then you won’t need my paycheck, you’ll have your own.

    Are you the kind of person suffering who can’t pay their sub-prime mortgage they never should have gotten because they need their cell phones, their satellite TV, their two car payments for their brand new cars, and other types of consumer debt, are you that kind of suffering?

    That’s right Voice of Reason, let our almighty Father Obama take care of you because you’re clearly incapable of taking care of yourself, as you just admitted you need me to pay your bills because you either won’t work or you’re too irresponsible to budget your money.

    You’re the truly selfish one who believes that your country owes you something, like access to other people’s checkbooks. Ever heard of “ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your county,” does that sound familiar?

    The other thing, I am very charitable when I find someone to help who is truly in need. I know how to help others with my money better than the government and The One ever could, so stop claiming that the government is the solution to your problems. Perhaps you will take up someday and realize that socialist policies have held you down all your life. Tell me, did anyone ever strike it rich collecting other people’s money? No, they did not. It’s the people who get up off their couch, leave the cave, kill something and drag it home. They make money, they get stuff done. You should try it sometime instead of whining that you’re entitled to other people’s money.

    Voice of Reason, when did you get your Communist Party membership? Did you recently enroll or have you been a child of the welfare state for some time now?

  • Those who spout socialism at every opportunity really are stupid.

  • Michael

    CG– I am not sure you truly understand the inner tenets of capitalism. Capitalism is not about selfishness– the idea is that by individuals pursuing their own interests, it will ultimately benefit society more. In the end, capitalism’s purpose is to help all. When you state things like you did, you sound more like the caricature of Scrooge, or Citizen Kane. Where’s your rosebud?

    And contrary to your statement:

    “America is a capitalist nation, we believe in individual responsibility, not government subsidizing everyone, as it’s currently doing,”

    we are not a capitalist country. The closest you can find to that would be Hong Kong, and that is a far cry from ideal. The U.S is a blend of socialist and capitalist processes. I do not know who the “we” is you are referring to, but the founding fathers considered it important to shore up both individual responsibility AND national responsibility. You’re into law– you know the drill– this is the balancing act. Instead of demonizing a concept you are not correctly interpreting or explaining, why don’t you instead use different words?

    And as for “Perhaps you will take up someday and realize that socialist policies have held you down all your life.” — I doubt that Voice of Reason will think that the service of the post office, firefighters, and police in his city/town have held him down all his life…

  • ann

    Democrats have become a far-left propaganda party with the lowest-ranked Congress in history. For six years, they have consistently refused to rein in the monumentally risky subprime loans that Clinton Democrats gave birth to.
    Yet, voters are blaming Republicans for this crisis and seem to think that a newcomer they know little about, despite his questionable past associates and mentors, can bring us more huge programs. These include one that would socialize the health care system at a time when government-run systems in Canada and Britain are lower in quality and nearly bankrupt.

  • Babs

    I don’t care what label you put it on it – socialist, capitolist, or radical – it’s stupid. The 5% of Americans who pay the highest taxes are ALREADY supporting this country, because at least 40% of Americans ALREADY don’t contribute a dime in taxes to our economy. This isn’t the haves vs. the have nots here. It’s Obama vs. America, and America is losing.

    Placing a 90 day moratorium on foreclosures is nothing more than a political stunt. The fact that he’s encouraging his Queen to do it now provides him time to take the election, keep the worry in people’s minds for 90 days, and then after he’s elected, do whatever he wants and the American people be damned. He’s simply trying to buy time and keep the economy at the forefront of the election. Good political move, but what about those very real people who will now have to worry about being thrown out of their homes for another 3 months? What was the urgency of the $700 billion bailout for them if Obama is now going to put them “on hold”? Is this just buying time to weed out the Acorn driven mortgages that he will forgive, and let the rest hit the street? That would be my guess.

  • EricF

    Babs, try not to stress out. the truth about the supposed messiah will be coming out very very soon. hehe.

  • EricF

    oh i almost forgot… wink

  • Dale

    My taxes went up once and I had to fire my girlfriend because she made my car use too much fuel. That might sound a bit rough, but she weighed over 100 kg so I feel good about it.

    Also she was a socialist, she believed that my fuel dollars should go into transporting her fat ass to the gym. I said get a job and left her on the side of the road.

    Actually I don’t think conservative girl is selfish at all. Educated Egoists (look it up, heathen) like us who can afford college and good jobs have no responsibility to support lazy fat people who can’t go to college and should get jobs cleaning my drive-way and their own gym memberships.
    Walk ½ hour each day and you wont need me to pay for your healthcare anyway!

    Why should I get a Porche Boxter when without taxes I could get a 911, I mean, only hobos drive Boxsters.

    EricF, by messiah I assume you mean Jesus, the truth about him will be coming out soon. Did you know he was pro-gun, pro-life and pro-awesome, I did, and soon you will too.

  • Dale

    This one time, a poor person walked near me and he was muttering to himself and he smelt, why didn’t he just put down his cell phone and Porche Boxter and pay his home loan,

    Why? Because he’s a lazy Socialist Commie! That’s why,

  • Dale

    Voice or Reason, If you don’t like American than you can git out! Y’know, or try to stem the tide of selfishness and inequality and make America as great as it could be rather than what it is. Did you know Jesus was selfish too?

    Of course, being as it is that America is already the greatest country in the world and thus cannot actually be any better, maybe you should just GIT OUT!

    Why do you hate America? Do you even own a flag pin?

  • EricF

    Dale you should notice i said supposed messiah. that means obama since everyone is calling him the messiah but yeah the true messiah is Jesus.

  • Indiminded

    Funny, I’ve never heard an Obama supporter call him the Messiah. Only McCain supporters. And a lot of them. I guess they think pretty highly of Obama…

  • Chris in Cincy

    you know, everyones so adamantly (if not violently) against socialism… what exactly is it that you’re against? idealogically, socialism is a pretty beautiful thing. everyone helping out their fellow man, a nation only as strong as its weakest link, everyone being equals… doesnt really sound that terrible to me. what exactly are we getting out of capitalism? whats mine is mine, and if you dont have anything then you can go ef yourself? isnt that maybe just a little bit selfish?
    now dont get me wrong, i think that people who work harder and strive to reach their full potential should be rewarded and those that have no ambition and are a drain on society shouldnt be rewarded for it. but whats wrong with lending a helping hand to those in need and helping them to bring themselves to a higher level? there are kids in inner cities who have no role-models, their parents do nothing, everyone they know in school will either never go to college after high-school or will never finish high-school. they have no ambition, no hope, half of them dont even have enough to eat from day to day – theyre literally starving to death at a very slow rate. where are they going when they reach adulthood? no-where. wheres our responsibility to those people? those children? those who have the power and resources to help those in need, should do so… wait a second… that sounds so much like the “republican foreign policy” its just eerie… thats why we’re in iraq right? to save those who couldnt save themselves from a cruel dictator? [or was it these mysterious wmd’s that no ones seen any trace of?]
    so why are conservatives opposed to doing this at home? ive never met a republican that supports social welfare, its automatically written off as “socialist” and evil, but theyre nothing if not willing to police the world to prevent cruelties in other nations… something is very very wrong in this picture. we should all help our fellow man, ESPECIALLY the children. they are our future, our hope. if we dont save them now, and fix this mess our fathers have gotten us into, then whats the point of any of this?
    socialism. yeah, bring it on. if it saves even half of those inner-city kids, ill be a socialist till the day i die.

  • Babs

    IndiMinded, here’s your Obama supporter referring to Obama as “The Messiah”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE

  • Babs, I do not approve of Obama’s or McCain’s platforms for fixing the economy at this point. I am happy about their agreed stance on strong oversight (governmental), which points to regulation, not deregulation. I do not think the political circuit would allow either candidate to speak frankly and offer lucid and important changes right now. We need to tighten our belts right now, and that is not a popular request to make a few weeks before an election.

  • Michael: “I doubt that Voice of Reason will think that the service of the post office, firefighters, and police in his city/town have held him down all his life.”

    You know damn well Obama isn’t talking about expanding the post office, firefighters, and police departments with his socialist policies. Get off that high horse, that’s a joke and I can’t even believe you said it.

    My degree is in business and economics, you look at religion, what gives you the right to berate me on this topic? When you say, “The U.S is a blend of socialist and capitalist processes,” you’re speaking of the various government services which operate. I am discussing the socialist policies of Obama, that you support, which promote redistribution of wealth, that is what holds people down. People who are taught, by Obama, that the “rich hold them down” will believe that and then never get off their couch and do anything. Can’t you see that? It’s the most basic concept, try to grasp it. When Obama tells people he will save them from their laziness, people believe him and they become less productive. Plus, the people in society who are actually contributing are now less productive because Barack Obama wants to take more out of their paycheck with his socialism and give it to the people who do nothing with their lives and don’t even pay taxes. That is the socialism I’m discussing, anyone could clearly see that.

    And to this: “but the founding fathers considered it important to shore up both individual responsibility AND national responsibility.”

    Are you kidding me? The burden of taxation was the arguably one of the most explosive issues to the Founding Fathers. They did not want, as they had in England, the government in everyone’s checkbook. Open a history book sometime and stop trying to pretend like the US was founded as a socialist nation, that’s called revisionism and it’s incorrect. The founders wanted a smaller federal government which did not burden citizens with high taxes. Barack Hussein Obama wants high taxes on everyone so he can “spread the wealth” to the lowest income brackets who don’t even pay taxes. I see you ignored my quote from John F. Kennedy, a democrat who believed in low taxes and capitalism. There is no comparison and you can’t just create one.

    The modern Democratic Party is a socialist party with regard to redistribution of wealth. They believe in class warfare to win votes, it’s pathetic. Instead of praising successful people, the Democratic Party led by Barry Obama now condemns success as some kind of evil. Don’t give me that post office crap, that isn’t what we’re talking about.

    Just admit it, you like socialism and like taking wealth from people and giving it to people who don’t even pay taxes. It’s a sick, sick mindset and I can’t believe we have people openly arguing for it on these threads. Where did individual responsibility go?

    Michael, you want to remake the United States into a socialist paradise where success is punished, lazy bums are given checks from the government, and people no longer have an incentive to work toward the American dream. As soon as you do become successful and hit Obama’s $250k mark, he will take your money back and punish you for making something of your life. He’ll slap your wrist and send you back into his welfare line so he can keep everyone dependent on the government for their “success” of being poor their entire lives. Newsflash, the government doesn’t make people wealthy, hard work and capitalism does.

    Michael, let me ask you this, you’re successful in life, clearly. Why are you successful? Is it thanks to the government? Or, perhaps, is it thanks to your own hard work and dedication? Maybe you got a federally guaranteed student loan along the way, but you have to pay that back. My point here is that you personally have become successful on your own volition. Why not let others do the same instead of hoodwinking them into believing they need Uncle Sam to save them?

    I personally don’t need the government to subsidize my income by thieving money from someone who’s more successful than me, I am not that pathetically weak and I would feel like a piece of crap for taking someone else’s money I didn’t earn.

  • Chris in Cincy

    cg – i gotta say im very disappointed in you right now. based on some other things ive seen you post i thought you would hold yourself to a higher standard that to slander obama by pulling out that hussein b.s. thats low, even for a conservative. you and i both know that obama has no ties to saddam or any other terrorist regimes. its sad, and ive lost a little respect for you. i thought you were better than that.

    you know, ive worked my ass off to get where i am now, yes i did have federally funded loans to go to college, and without them i never would have been able to go. and now because of them ill be in debt the rest of my life. im totally in favor of socialist higher education. i think any child with a dream of going to college should be able to do so and not have to be in the shit hole im in now because of it.

    you obviously value your “hard earned money” more than the welfare of your neighbors and helping the lowest income members in our society make more of themselves, and i pity you for that. materialism is a terrible disease, and i fear you have it. the world may appear to run on money, but happiness certainly does not. (although it doesnt hurt, ill agree – but theres more to life and humanity that some green toiletpaper)

    its nice that youre so accomplished and youve made so much of yourself without hand-outs but there are millions out there that are much less fortunate than you are. they dont have the ambition to go to college, they dont even know what ambition is. its not their fault, its not that theyre just lazy asses and dont want to do anything, theyre just casualties of our culture, the one you so egotistically defend. our greedy capitalist mindsets created these class distinctions that inevitable left them in hopeless despair,and now no one wants to take responsibility for the mess thats been created. im sure these people would love to have jobs, they have the same pride you do, they dont want to take hand-outs, but they have no skills, who would hire them? would you?

    as for this taxation of the wealthy thing. wow. i dont know what your salary is, but mine certainly isnt anywhere near 250k. the top 5% wealthiest in this country pay 75% of the taxes, but their combined wealth is over 95% of the countries wealth, i say let them pay taxes proportionally, give em 95% of the burden. i assure you that even if they pay 95% of the taxes in our country, they wont be begging on the streets. shit, they’ll still probably have a couple of vacation homes. i dont feel sorry for people making millions of dollars of “hard-earned” money a year. and the majority of those people dont work hard, and didnt work hard to get where they are. theyre trust fund babies & heirs of the wealthy. their fathers and grandfathers worked their asses off, yes, but the present day wealthy? nah… the majority of them are just wealthy because they won the sperm lottery.

  • Just an observation, but why is it the middle class who’d financially be better off under Obama defending taxing the rich? The rich aren’t really saying anything because they have that much money they probably don’t even care how much they get taxed.

    Lets have a show of hands of how many here are in the top 5% earners of the population who’d actually see a tax increase under Obama.

    I always thought it was a moral and ‘chritian’ thing to help those that need help NOT those that don’t. The hypocrisy beggars belief.

  • Bill Hedges

    RZpudding– You ask a question and I am giving a respectful answer. My opionion. One is judged by his past. In the Senate, Obama voted for tax increases. Not just tax increases for the rich. Jobs are created by rich people. $ Trlion of rich people money is off shore because of high taxes. More has been moved. And more will leave if he is elected. Obviouslly not Obama fault.. But the words coming from Biden and Obama is rich must help the poor. Some rich may see a class clash. Or whatever. What ever the thoughts are, it is not good for business. Turmol is not good for business. I use Cuba as example. Businesses do not flock there to open companies. Even though there is cheap labor. Iran is another example. Energy leader I saw recently was asking for foreign oil companies to come help them. Even American oil companies. But oil companies are scared to go there..Obama scares companies. Thus losing jobs..I know companies do not pay taxes. I know I paid their taxes when I buy the cmpanies products in companies added on cost.. I know Obama had a average of $ 1 million PORK that he tried to add to other bills. I know of no bills that Obama developed. I know direct or indirectly I will pay more taxes. I see him promising the moon. To get votes. His history in the Senate not good……. Helping others less fortunete is good. Ckeck the tax records of Obama and McCain. Obamas is ok. McCains s more. Unlike Obama, John donated all his Congress raises and books profits to Charities. As well as from other incomes. Mrs. McCain does charity work…Chaarity is something given from the heart. And not REQUIRED BY LAW……… As a proud inbdividual, I do not want to steal a fancy car, I want to earn one. If I need a education to get there, I want government to help me get a loan, so I can be educated and find a job. That is how I want government to help. And I want government to make sure I have a fair deal when I apply for that good job that I am quified for. ……Rzpudding said…Lets have a show of hands of how many here are in the top 5% earners of the population who’d actually see a tax increase under Obama……….Your statement you must believe. Those like me, do not believe. This is my explanation.

  • b

    Targeted tax cuts = socialism,.. that is a huge stretch? I do not think that Obama’s tax plan is at all equivalant to socialism, it is simply right and fair giving 95% of the population the largest share of the tax relief, who in turn will take that tax savings and stimulate the economy in a much more significant way than giving the largest share of tax relief to the top 5% of earners. The bailout and the bank takeover that the Dems and the Bush administration McCain and Obama railroaded through congress,… that is socialism… Government taking over the means of production and the distribution of goods. McCains plan of taking over mortgages, that is socialism.

  • America is blessed!!! Twenty bucks says that most of these people shouting socialism, have never been to a socialist country. My husband served a LDS mission in Serbia/Bulgaria and the things he saw, the childern and the suffering they go through. It starts with “Lets be our brothers and sisters keeper” in the words of Obama, but in the end we become our goverments keeper. I read all these comments and the thing that bothers me the most is that some people are like “crap look whats happing, this sucks” NOT the right attitude!!! if you take and number the letters in the Alaphabet and then apply those numbers to the word attitude you will find it equals 100% A1 B2 C3 D4 E5 F6 G7 H8 I9 J10 K11 L12 M13 N14 O 15 P16 Q17 R18 S19 T20 U21 V22 W23 X24 Y25 Z26
    A T T I T U D E
    1 20 20 9 20 21 4 5 = 100

    We who believe in America should never give up and give 100% to the cause of freedom, one guy sayed he wasnt going to vote cause he was upset at both of them. Duh you just gave up a sacred right willingly. We have to teach our childern we have to be strong and if it comes down to America waring aginst itself then so be it. Ill be on the front lines for freedom. Why are we letting fear get in the way, No we fight fight to the death. No more talk of what could be join together and fight. I know that America will always be free!!! we will fight for it! Call me what you will. But if black people want to vote for Obama because he is black then they forget true heros like Martin Luther King “I have a dream!!!” even there roots shout freedom to the hightest mountians. Freedom is a dream made into a reality by who? YOU and I. Its is a sacred blessing that has to be guarded. We have to protect it and that we will!!!! Its fragile and maby its good that is brought to our attention one more!!!!!!! NOTE exsuce my spelling LOL

  • “cg – i gotta say im very disappointed in you right now. based on some other things ive seen you post i thought you would hold yourself to a higher standard that to slander obama by pulling out that hussein b.s. that’s low, even for a conservative.”

    Chris in Cincy, I’m sorry that I seem to have upset you, but that’s life. People say things that I don’t like all the time, you know what? That’s part of being human. The truth is I feel that Obama is a closet Muslim who likes to masquerade as a Christian. Also I question his links to domestic terrorism, which I guess means he is guilty by association. Would you hang out with someone who hangs with known domestic terrorists?

    “you obviously value your “hard earned money” more than the welfare of your neighbors and helping the lowest income members in our society make more of themselves, and i pity you for that. materialism is a terrible disease, and i fear you have it.”

    Materialism, I wish. Just graduating from undergrad and now pursuing my doctorate, there’s not too much to my name. But what I do have I have worked for, student loan debt and all. That’s right, I have student loan debt. One thing that I have learned from all this student loan debt is I will not ask my future children to go into debt for an education. Nate and I will provide for higher education as well as private school. You see that’s not materialistic, that’s just smart investing. More parents need to take responsibility and instead of buying their children crap they don’t need, they need to be investing in their education. Nate and I have already started, even though kids are not even in the picture yet. For kids like myself there’s a lesson to be learned in having to take out a student loan, mainly that it sucks. I wished I would have worked during college so that I didn’t have so much student loan debt. There’s nothing wrong with students working so that they don’t have to go into massive amounts of debt for an education. They also need to take the opportunity and go to a Community College. There’s no shame in that.

    “its nice that youre so accomplished and youve made so much of yourself without hand-outs but there are millions out there that are much less fortunate than you are. they dont have the ambition to go to college, they dont even know what ambition is. its not their fault, its not that theyre just lazy asses and dont want to do anything, theyre just casualties of our culture, the one you so egotistically defend.”

    You are such an enabler! Hey lets give everyone a free pass to slack off, oh so you have no ambition, that’s too bad here’s your check from the gov’t, don’t feel bad though there’s more where that came from, yeah from my pocket. See I know the people you speak of, they’re the ones who choose to drop out my college classes b/c that work became too hard, or that it was just too early in the morning for them to get out of bed and make it to class. Yes I’m now being rewarded for my hard work and 3.8 grade point average, but I busted my ass to get here and I must continue to bust my ass so I can drag it over the finish line. But you know I will stay humble in remembering that I started out at a community college and ended up with a promising career.

    Enjoy your whine, it’s time I got back to studying since you won’t be making my grades or paying my tuition, but I can guarantee you will be advocating for the gov’t to do so.

  • Bill Hedges

    B said–Targeted tax cuts = socialism,.. that is a huge stretch? I do not think that Obama’s tax plan is at all equivalant to socialism, it is simply right and fair giving 95% of the population the largest share of the tax relief….Compare this to definition of Socilism…………B said–The bailout and the bank takeover that the Dems and the Bush administration McCain and Obama railroaded through congress,… that is socialism… Government taking over the means of production and the distribution of goods. McCains plan of taking over mortgages, that is socialism…. In the GREAT DEPRESSION simular things was done. America is a Democracy. With excptions. Example..Under certain condition it can take private land for public good. Can delare Marshall Law, etc..We have social Security, welfare, etc.. We are still a Democracy….Just a reminder. Rich people earned their money. Poor do not create many jobs. You take away the rich, you will work for the government. Obama announced he wants to limit the pay of C.E.O.’s of banks accepting government money. That’s socialm..

  • Responding to New Zealand Pudding guy,

    “Just an observation, but why is it the middle class who’d financially be better off under Obama defending taxing the rich?”

    That’s because not all of us in the middle class are blood-sucking parasites on the wealthiest, most successful Americans. God bless them for being successful, I hope to be as successful someday. What happens pudding man if the wealth dries up? Then who do the wealth-sucking Obama followers suck dry next?

    See pudding man, you made the ignorant mistake of believing everyone in the middle class is some kind of peasant waiting for Barack “Robin Hood” Obama to come save them. I don’t need Obama’s help, I am self-sufficient for my paycheck. I don’t want to take other people’s money, even from people who make more than me. I am charitable with my money, helping friends and family in need, more than the government could ever dream of.

    New Zealand Pudding man, you need to stop acting like wealthy people did something wrong. The only thing they’re guilty of is hard work and the American dream. I too hope to achieve it, but not by tearing down the success of others like you’re proposing.

    I defend against higher taxes on anyone, since first Obama will come for the wealthy, then he’ll come for the modestly wealthy, then he’ll come for anyone making $50 grand, then anyone who makes money at all. I defend because I know when you go down that road, you never stop.

    This might shock you, but I am not envious of anyone’s success, I am happy for them. I don’t think its right that the government takes their money to supplement my salary, that’s called theft, and Obama is the biggest socialist thief there is.

    Don’t you get that pudding man?

  • SuzieQ it pains me to say this but Bill made more sense than you.

    I have absolutely nothing against wealthy people, good luck to them, but I’m trying to make the connection why the wealthy aren’t up in arms about the possibility of being taxed more, yet the middle class are and they won’t be taxed higher. I’m trying to figure out why defending the rich is more important than defending the poor. If you can make that argument why the poor and needy shouldn’t be helped, then I’m all ears.

  • Bill Hedges

    Nzpudding– Poor are helped. Do you know our welfare system is thr WORLD’s LARGEST exchange of wealth in history. Not counting all other help given to the poor. Obama himself is example of American dream. Susie Q–Well said. I was raised to lift myself up by my britches. And to give back..my choice. Just as I will pick my wife.

  • Bill Hedges

    NzPuudding said– have absolutely nothing against wealthy people, good luck to them, but I’m trying to make the connection why the wealthy aren’t up in arms about the possibility of being taxed more……..They are. I know they are as you know middle class won’t be taxed any higher. They can leave their money in C.D.’s instead of the market are other things that create jobs. A show I watched last night that talked of the rich sending money out of America.

  • Pudding man says “SuzieQ it pains me to say this but Bill made more sense than you.”

    Sorry pudding man, let me put it into much more simple, easy to understand language for the hard of reading among us.

    I am middle class. I don’t want the government to increase anyone’s taxes. I believe if the government starts choosing to raise taxes on one group, they will then choose to raise taxes on more groups. I also believe if the government tells someone who make $250k a year that they need to subsidize my paycheck, what stops the government from saying anyone who makes $50k a year must subsidize people making $30k a year, and so on?

    Does that make sense? Can I be clearer? If not, you are drunk or not even reading it.

    Pudding man also says “If you can make that argument why the poor and needy shouldn’t be helped, then I’m all ears.”

    The poor and needy should be helped by others including individuals helping individuals, charitable organizations, religious organizations, and neighbors helping neighbors in hard times. If you can explain to me how the government raising taxes helps the poor and needy, I’m all ears since the raise in taxes will probably go to congress getting a pay raise or other worthless ventures, like pork barrel projects.

    Also, if you are of the impression that the government sending people checks is “helping” them, you sir are legally insane. Do you know what government checks create? It creates dependence on the government pudding man, dependence! People won’t work as hard knowing the government will bail them out like they bail everyone out. You know what keeps me going everyday? Knowing that I am responsible for me and my bills, nobody else. Why should I get up everyday if Barry O and his band of socialist rebels will take care of me?

    Pudding man, if you can’t understand this, then you’re a lost cause, have fun under your socialist Obama administration. Oh wait, McCain will win in November and you live in New Zealand, so this doesn’t affect you either way.

    Pudding man is now at a loss for words…

  • There are socialistic characteristics of any democracy. But in a democracy dont the people truly control the government? why is it that the people we vote into office never do what they say they will, Yet we still re-elect them term after term. Why is it that the elected people in office, work less days and less hours, then the worker producing a product that contributes to society and the economy, when they produce nothing but paper bills and laws taking the rights and privilages away from us in an effort of “protecting us”. Are they elite, better, or more soffisticated then us? Or is it that we are lazy, and want the government to give us free hand outs that arent actually free? We are not voting for a right and wrong president, we are voting for the better of the two wrongs. I would rather stay as free as I can while still keeping my lands safe from intruders than colapse under a leader who cares nothing for freedom, terrorists, and my safety! I will not and nor should anyone subject themselfs to socialism or anyone who wants to bring this county closer to it. When a hole needs to be dug, if we would just pick up a shovel and dig the hole would be dug and we would have no need for government programs!

  • Bill Hedges

    Hey–So true. You know what PORK is. Job security for Conressmen. I will vote for your bill, but you must add my Pork to your bill. You wonder why we are at all time National debt.? Sub-prine loans was home buyers who could not afford homes. With any of the normal buyers requirements . Now you and I will pay. Frank, Dodd, and Obama are still in Congress. ACORN and Congress caused this. Check the internet.

  • Dale

    By most of the conservative comments here I can’t help but feel the concept of a tax cut to 95% of Americans is seen as wealth redistribution down.

    Doesn’t that have to mean Bush’s tax cuts were wealth redistribution upward? Why is everybody so afraid of their own taxes being lower? Just because the plan wasn’t proposed by a Republican doesn’t make it bad for you.

    Ps: EricF said Obama was the messiah, I said it was Jesus. Can you lot even read? You should take a hint from Sarah Palin, she reads everything and anything, so wonder she knows so much about Hockey.

  • EricF

    Dale you better knock it the hell off! i never said obama was the messiah. i said supposed messiah since thats what the media is making him out to be. you have been warned. stop putting words in my mouth.

  • Dale

    I think a sense of humour might help you. You seem tense, maybe a massage, a hot cup of cocoa, you know, let some stress out.

    If I could I’d give you a hug, I might even grope you a little.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dale–Tell us the methods your country follows. I would be interested. It my give a real good way we should do it here. You have pointed out Reic F views then discussed how it differed from others. Please enlighten me. Please, give your view, not the views of others. Put your thoughts on the line. I will not make humor on your view.

  • Babs

    SusieQ, excellent post! Pudding man, she’s right, and you know it. 😉

  • Dale

    Bill I have shared a lot in other posts, but I’ll share with you a few things about my country, and my perspective.

    1. Minimum wage is double – far less class distinction

    2. Government funded student loans so everybody can go to university (notably, India, a 3rd world country has the most educated population in the world)

    3. Government health care costs 1.7% of my taxable income. Private vendors in this country need to offer a very good service in order to compete, which increases competition.

    4. Much more liberal social security which results in far, far less homeless people, and much less of a downward spiral style approach.

    5. Much tighter banking regulations. If you look into it, Australia is one of the most robust from your economic {insert buzzword} for specifically that reason.

    I know for a fact that in another country, even or perhaps especially yours, I would not be what I am today. If the US is the land of opportunity, why would I not have been able to afford college? Why would I not have had healthcare?

    I came from a very poor family, I lived on welfare for large portions of my life. Yet through government programs and loans I now have 2 university degrees and a very successful business. That opportunity existed for me, and now I have the opportunity to repay it.

    That opportunity would have been so much more difficult for me in the US, perhaps, for me at least – impossible. That’s something I really appreciate, and it’s really about equal(ish) opportunity for rich and poor.

    So many people on this site want to almost blame poor people for being poor, don’t want to pay taxes that might go to them etc. First provide real opportunity, real educational possibilities, then condemn if you must, but provide a real opportunity first.

    The biggest issue I see with the US is motivation. People say the Democrats economics plans will cripple the country, are socialist, wealth redistribution etc. OK, what’s the motivation? What possible motivation is there, other than the most obvious altruistic perspective?

    Now take the Republican trickle down economics perspective of taxing high income earners less because they drive the economy, provide jobs etc. What’s the motivation? Most of John McCain’s top advisors are lobbyists for big business, most top Republicans are either former lobbyists or owners/executives for major corporations. Where is their motivation? Where are their loyalties? Isn’t it just a little bit possible that they might suggest lowering taxes on themselves for selfish reasons?

    John McCain himself has built his platform on the idea that lobbyists are destroying Washington, that their motivations are obviously questionable (it’s their freaking job), yet that’s who he surrounds himself with.

    It’s their job to make you scared. Their job to convince SusieQ and Babs that one tax increase on them will mean one on you (even though you actually get a tax break). That higher taxes are wealth redistribution (even though lower taxes for high income earners under Bush apparently somehow weren’t). It’s their job to scare you into thinking poor people want to sit on their ass and live off your pay-check.

    It’s their job, what’s their motivation, because it isn’t you. Look around the world, the US perspective, especially the Republican perspective is so absurdly ethnocentric. Their are so many better ideas to improve your country but they don’t help big business, they help YOU. That’s why they call them socialist, wealth re-distribution etc. Those are marketing terms, and you can take from somebody with a marketing degree.

    By the way, those programs work all around the world, and they can work for you, if you’re smart enough to let them.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dale- I hank-you for your insights. I have a few comment and questions……………………………………………..Dale said-1. Minimum wage is double – far less class distinction……Higher wages could cause some business to go out of business……………………………………………..Dale said–2. Government funded student loans so everybody can go to university (notably, India, a 3rd world country has the most educated population in the world)India is not your country ? America has student loans. I am not aware on how it works. Been out a long time. I know it has got expense here, with Government loan system being at leastly particle responsible……………………………………………Dale said–3. Government health care costs 1.7% of my taxable income. Private vendors in this country need to offer a very good service in order to compete, which increases competition…I take your word on this. I have heard good things on Germany plan. Not so good for Canada’s plan………………………………………………….Dale said-4.—-Little information for me to judge………………………………………………..Dale said-5. Much tighter banking regulations. If you look into it, Australia is one of the most robust from your economic {insert buzzword} for specifically that reason…..I must agree with you. Dodd, Frank, and Obama allowed ACORN TO CHANGE OUR hOUSE LOANING SYSTEM to allow unquified hom buyers. We call it sub-prime loans. We have gone through one of the longest bull markets in our history. We should still in that postion, except for unquified home buyers……………………………………………….Dale said– know for a fact that in another country, even or perhaps especially yours, I would not be what I am today. If the US is the land of opportunity, why would I not have been able to afford college? Why would I not have had healthcare?…….I disagree. Obama was poor, I call him successful Not all Countries has National health Care. When we have gotten National health Care under Bill Clinton, if Bill and Hillary had not broken the law………………………………………………….Dale said–So many people on this site want to almost blame poor people for being poor, don’t want to pay taxes that might go to them etc. First provide real opportunity, real educational possibilities, then condemn if you must, but provide a real opportunity first….America has given the poor here the largest exchange of money in the World……………………………………………….Dale said–……..The rest you said would cause my already long commet to bust. In America Obama is example of a person going from poor to candidate for resident. That is American drean. He got welfare. He got student loans. He worked. Now I don’t like his politics, yes. But I admire his work. I do not admire Class envy.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dave said- By the way, those programs work all around the world, and they can work for you, if you’re smart enough to let them. …..I just have to answer this. Our programs can work in other parts of the World. In studies, Americans are one of the best producers. The heart of America is unique. We are leaders. We give foreign aid, we help other countries in time of physical needs and war. We want to the aid during World War 1 and 11. America was not attacked by Germany. Unlike Russia and Great Britain, America does not keep Countries. America has given to the World and to it’s own people. Americans do not break the law to live outside the United States. In Germany America built up west Germany. Russia did not for East Germany. I am proud of America, and how we treat people. I do not tell other Countries how to improve their Country. We in America allow others and ourselves to tell us how to better America.

  • Dale

    Bill, The programs I meant were more in terms of social security, health care and education. Your point about There’s no reason why govt systems can’t be effective. For healthcare, take schooling as an example. There are government schools of course, so private have to be good to compete, or else why pay more? That same philosophy I think is essential for healthcare.

    You said: America has given the poor here the largest exchange of money in the World. Probably true, but per-capita is a much better measure, and I guarantee your argument wont hold up under that scrutiny.

    Obama succeeded coming from similar beginnings to me true, of course. However, he faced a tougher challenge than me because it’s harder in your country. In Australia, it’s easier, that’s my point. Also, 25 years ago it was easier in the US than it is now. Obama has scholarships and massive family support, I had neither, but luckily I didn’t need them.

    Your point about govt loans and college costs increasing could be valid. That comes down to regulation, ours is good. We recently had a Bush-like prime minister who de-regulated a little and increased costs, he was recently very unceremoniously removed.

    As for the financial crisis, I take issue with the low blows: Dodd, Frank, and Obama allowed ACORN TO CHANGE OUR hOUSE LOANING SYSTEM. You and I both knows there is a LOT more to the story than that, and it’s certainly not a partisan issue. If want to look at the larger issue being regulation, deregulation is a republican philosophy. It’s not one bad policy or even a collection, it’s at the core. So I think throwing that out is BS and is counter-productive to any reasonable discussion.

    Bill, I’m more than open to constructive criticism, both personal and national. Your points about foreign aid and occupation are taken and in name your are correct. You could make the case about Hawaii and Alaska though. Your last point however: “We in America allow others and ourselves to tell us how to better America.”. This is a perfect example of an ethnocentric perspective, you don’t seriously think that’s only a US policy. Moreover, under Bush, that’s exactly NOT true. He defied NATO almost religiously, specifically not allowing others to have input.

    debate’s starting…

  • Bill Hedges

    Dave said–Obama succeeded coming from similar beginnings to me true, of course. However, he faced a tougher challenge than me because it’s harder in your country. In Australia, it’s easier, that’s my point. Also, 25 years ago it was easier in the US than it is now. Obama has scholarships and massive family support, I had neither, but luckily I didn’t need them…..As you said about my comment on Biggest wealth exchange to you. Yout answer I apply here………………………………………………….Dave said-Your point about govt loans and college costs .increasing could be valid. That comes down to regulation, ours is good. We recently had a Bush-like prime minister who de-regulated a little and increased costs, he was recently very unceremoniously removed…Bush and McCain wanted more regulation on F/F. If those added regulation were added, America would still be in BULL MARKET. The Idea that Bush is against regulations, is simple false……………………………………………….Daave said==As for the financial crisis, I take issue with the low blows: Dodd, Frank, and Obama allowed ACORN TO CHANGE OUR hOUSE LOANING SYSTEM. You and I both knows there is a LOT more to the story than that, and it’s certainly not a partisan issue. If want to look at the larger issue being regulation, deregulation is a republican philosophy. It’s not one bad policy or even a collection, it’s at the core. So I think throwing that out is BS and is counter-productive to any reasonable discussion…Facts are there. I never said no Republicans involved. Is not a low blow, facts are there. Frank was head of committee for f/f..Dodd and frank are directly involved in this. Acorn did big part of sub–prime problem. There is no doubt about it. Bill Clinton forced the issue of giving loans to poor. Those I have mentioned got un-qualified buyers homes. And Frank was claimed there no problem while he was sleeping with man at Fanny. The evidence is clear ACORN has a very big part of this. The biggest liar that got bigger bonus for fasifying records, works for Obama….Alaska was bought. I can not recall about Alaska. Did they not vote to be part of America. All our posessions voted to be part of us. Aficia years ago did not vote to be part of Britain. No need to mention Russia. Sorry I am not familiar with you NATO comment.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dave said–We in America allow others and ourselves to tell us how to better America.”. This is a perfect example of an ethnocentric perspective, you don’t seriously think that’s only a US policy. …..I frankly do not understand this jump from my statement…