Biden wants to “take money” from “patriotic” taxpayers

Call it honesty or a gaffe, either one, but today Sen. Joe Biden stated that he and Senator Obama want to “take money” and redistribute it to the middle class. To clarify his remarks, Biden said that paying these higher taxes is “patriotic” and that the wealthy need to get in the game, so to speak.

The video of Biden’s remarks:

Story from MSNBC of Biden defending his statement:

AKRON, Ohio — Fired up in a room full of union members, Joe Biden angrily defended both his ticket’s tax plan and his own claim that tax hikes for the rich are patriotic, while urging fellow Democrats to stand their ground on what he said was a values debate.

Biden, speaking to members of the Laborers International Union of North America, began by saying that there is “no disagreement” between John McCain and Barack Obama on the need for tax cuts. The real issue, he said, is who gets them.

“Catholic social doctrine as I was taught it is, you take care of people who need the help the most,” he said. “Now it’d be different if you could make the case to me that by giving this tax cut to the very wealthy, everybody else was going to be better off. We saw what happened the last eight years when we gave that tax cut.”

He then explained his statement, first made at a rally in Sarasota, FL, two weeks ago, that asking the wealthiest Americans to accept tax hikes would be patriotic. And he added that the tax rates would still be lower than they were under the Reagan administration.

For me personally, I get a little concerned when a politician from any party wants to “take money” from me or anyone else. Why do politicians think they have a right to hard-earned money? Aren’t they claiming people can’t make enough of it?

Sen. Biden says he’s speaking of people making $250k or more, which scares me. It’s as if your success gives the government the right to “take” your money and give it to someone else. I don’t make $250k a year or anything near it, however, I don’t want the government taking money from someone who does, it’s that simple.

Say what you will but this was not a good position for Biden to admit.

  • Babs

    Well, now we know what Obama meant when he said “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for” – he’s waiting for us to bail out the Obama administration with our tax money.

  • Babs

    And if Biden thinks it’s patriotic for the upper class bail out the lower class, should we look at it as a patriotic charitable donation? If that’s the case, Biden is not patriotic. He doesn’t donate to charity. Check his tax records. Obama ain’t too sporty at it himself.

  • What’s more patriotic? the rich helping the poor or the poor who’ve helped make the rich even richer?

    BTW: I don’t agree with what Biden is saying, but at least he’s not pretending he aint going to tax people.

  • Dreadsen

    “Well, now we know what Obama meant when he said “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for” – he’s waiting for us to bail out the Obama administration with our tax money. ”


    I guess that makes us poor folks anti american 🙁

  • NZP, I can agree with you, I would prefer politicians just be honest on any given issue, regardless of their position. If you believe in raising taxes for social programs, please say so and I can respect much more than dodging the issue. At least Biden is honest enough to admit his position about taxes.

    The other issue: Was Biden intimating that poor and middle class Americans are not as patriotic because they don’t pay a lot of taxes? I’m sure he wasn’t but if you take his words at face value, they could have been delivered much smoother.

  • Reina Burnett

    This is so silly. It’s a fact: Americans pay taxes = the government takes money away from us. Big deal, would you prefer that you didn’t have a road to drive on or a school to send your children to? It amazes me how McCarthyism still lingers with many conservatives. Surely, a Canadian or European wouldn’t be offended by the concept of their government taking money from them, they know it works and it’s what’s best for their country and fellow citizens. I wish more Americans were equally devoted to their country, yes, more patriotic, and able to look outside of their own mediocre life to think about progress, change, and actually bettering the world. Why look for politicians to pad the truth and protect us from reality? It’s a little like not wanting to be reminded about how your meat was killed. Fine, I suppose we should also say the economy is strong and that we’re going to “win the war” in Iraq. But America can’t go on like this much longer and that little bubble you like to live in is going to pop.

  • PeoplePower

    Who likes to pay taxes? Well, of course, few people do.

    Oh, wait. *I* do. I like to contribute my fair share to pay for the operation of the Federal, State & Local government.

    I drive on roads that are maintained by these governments. I rely upon first responders that are paid for by these entities. I live and breath in this great land because our soldiers are paid for by these entities.

    And I help in *all* of these things by contributing my fair share for the cost of government.

    Wanna keep your taxes low? Work to build a system that removes earmarks and pork and insists upon fiscal responsibility – such as the pay-go system helped to maintain.

    The bottom-line is this – fiscal responsibility must be a requirement. Balancing the budget is good, but paying down the debt is *huge*.

    Talk about a National Security issue. We are so steeped in debt to China and other nations (Saudi Arabia is another big one) that we must “play nice” with them or else they’ll call in their debts.

    Taxes are patriotic because they’re the only way some people can serve the country – help pay for the cost of a war that you should already have paid for (tax cuts during wartime – despicable!).

  • PeoplePower

    Oh – and to be clear. I’m not talking about paying *huge* taxes…I’m talking about paying reasonable taxes. Something we haven’t done in a long time.

    Once again, we find ourselves in a situation where some would like to have all of the services they can imagine but don’t really want to pay for them…

  • Robert

    Money is not earned or accumulated in a vacuum. When individuals hold excessive amounts, it is perfectly reasonable to reinvest it back into the pool of labor of technology from whence it came.

  • JD

    “They are still going to pay less taxes then they did under Reagan…” – Stated by Biden at the end part of the interview.

    Warren Buffett has argued that he isn’t being asked to pay his share. He went around his office, asking people what share of their income they pay in income taxes.

    Buffett’s 17.7 percent tax rate compared a bit too favorably with the 30 percent tax rate paid by his secretary.

    So it appears that the tax system favors the super-rich over working stiffs.

    And Buffett went a step further, putting his money where his mouth is. Last November he issued a challenge to his fellow billionaires:

    He bet a million dollars against any member of the Forbes 400 who can prove that the average (federal tax rate including income and payroll taxes) for the Forbes 400 will be less than the average of their receptionists.

    So far, no-one has taken him up on this bet.

    Seriously, People… wake up.

    Those poor rich people. They are going to have to pay more taxes then they do now but less then they did under the original implementer of the trickle down theory(Reagan).

    If it was exceptable for Reagan why is it so crazy now?

    It is time the wealthy in this country stop their greed and pay their fair share.

  • Chai

    There is a word for those who acquire wealth and do all they can to keep it all for themselves. GREED.

  • I have to say, this smacks more of commentary than reporting (such as the title).

    Biden’s point, whether you agree with it or not, is that it is patriotic to ante up when time is tough. FDR said this during the Great Depression, and I think U.S citizens are willing to do this when asked. He is not intimating anything about people being unpatriotic if they are poor and cannot give. When you can help out this country– it’s patriotic to do so. In this respect, Biden was talking about money.

    Now, frankly, I am fine with raising the taxes on the top %5 of the U.S. I’ve heard the argument before– the old Ayn Rand “rich will leave and go somewhere else” argument. Japanese are taxing more and their rich aren’t going anywhere, and so are a few other strong economies, but this begs the question. Most of the people I hear this argument from always proudly argues that the U.S is the best country in the world.

    It’s a choice here— if it is the best, you should be willing to the pay the most. And no, I don’t think it becomes the best by being the ‘nicest’ to the rich. I can find dozens of dictatorships that do this extraordinarily well.

    People just don’t get it– democracy is not antithetical to socialism. Ever heard of the Scandinavian countries? We need more money for our current “socialist” programs, such as the post office, fire department, and police…

  • JD

    Here is the video of it is warren Buffets own words.

    If Warren Buffet is saying the rich are not taxed enough then who else needs to speak up for people to realize the tax code is not fair and leans heavily on the middle class.

  • Nate, absolutely I wish the politicians would be more open about what they intend to do regarding taxes. Someone somewhere is going to get their taxes raised and someone is going to get their taxes lowered.

    As for being patriotic, the most patriotic thing in America at the moment I would say is the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting the ‘War Against Terror’ and the majority of those soldiers come from lower income families. If Biden said that to bolster his argument then I think he’d have a lot more support.

  • freespirit

    I just find it hilarious that people not making even close to 250k get agitated over the potential tax increase of the top 5%…and instead critize Obama/Biden for their plans…we live in a funny world with funny people 🙂

  • Babs

    Michael, I agree that people should ante up, but not in the form of taxes that are NOT going to the valiant programs being touted here. They are going to subsidize the 3 trillion in new programs Obama is proposing. They’re for educational programs, job programs, stem cell research, HIV/Aids programs, and welfare continuation and expansion. I don’t mind contributing to some of those, just like I contribute to the Red Cross, American Cancer Society, etc. And those that are what Biden can call “patriotic” for *donating* their money to taxes, are the same people who donate even more to these programs every day. Well, it’s elective now, and these organizations receives millions in donations every year. Joe Biden wouldn’t know anything about that, though, because he’s a bit stingy when it comes to contributing to causes. I wonder if the new Governor of New York agrees with Biden – since the sum total of his charitable contributions last year amounted to $150 worth of clothes to the Salvation Army.

    Let’s call it what it is. People have donated multi million dollars to Obama’s campaign this year, and he swears it comes from grass roots lower and middle class people who can’t pay their bills when they sit down to that perverbeal kitchen table. If they have extra money to donate monthly to his campaign, they can pay taxes just like the rest of us. A flat percentage across the board. Take a trip to the welfare office sometime and look at the caliber of cars in the parking lot. Walk inside and look at the cell phones pressed to every ear, the IPods rocking to the beat, the $100 shoes on the feet, the jewelry, all of that. The welfare system is as broken as Wall Street is, and its draining the coffers dry. I say fix it. Don’t ask a small percentage of americans who get up and go to work every morning for their money to keep these broken systems running. Until Obama agrees to fix these things, I absolutely am opposed to his lopsided tax increases. I’m opposed to them anyway. Fair tax is fair tax, and that’s what’s patriotic. To propose otherwise is unpatriotic of Obama and Biden.

    The bottom line is that those who work hard and hit the $250,000 annual mark don’t owe anybody else a living. They’re not obligated to support a welfare system exploding with illegal immigrants and a new generation of folks that think the world owes them something for being born. You don’t penalize americans for succeeding, you reward them. And they in turn create organizations and support organizations that make the world a better place.

  • ps

    You jerks make your cash on the backs of the middle class. You are crushing us. We work just as damn hard. The split between the upper/middle classes is higher than in the entire history of our country.

    Your damn right you should be paying more taxes to support our society.

  • Robert

    We cannot measure objectively units of “hard work.” The fact of the matter is, however, that while some people work 60+ hours per week and make $250k+, others work the same number of hours and struggle to extend themselves above the poverty line. It is precisely the value or meaning of hard work that is diminished in an economy that is stacked in favor of some and not others. In many cases it is simply a matter of chance that someone’s “hard work” pays off big time while another’s does not. Do we as a nation value luck and chance, or do we value hard work absolutely?

  • Babs

    We value hard work, Robert. And you’re right, pay grades vary. But that’s a different subject. The majority of recipents in Obama’s tax plan are those with NO jobs, and a portion of those are career welfare recipients. Remember the phrase “career student”? I believe it was coined back when the draft was still in effect, and college students were by and large exempt from being called up. So they became “career students”. What we have today are “career unemployed” people, avoiding being “called up” to work because they can sit at home and make money, and we don’t need to send them a check. We need to create more jobs for them, and see that they take them. It still goes back to a “hand out” versus a “hand up”. The democratic party historically has favored the “hand out” over the “hand up”.

    McCain’s take on Biden Patriotic statement this morning:

  • JD

    “The bottom line is that those who work hard and hit the $250,000 annual mark don’t owe anybody else a living.”

    You are Right Babs…. that is why they are paying as little as 1/2 as much in taxes as the working stiffs who are making less.

    I am so sick of this trickle down crap. We need a FLAT TAX. Where everyone is taxed a Flat %.

    Why not start at the 30% the majority of Households are paying and scale it back as the Rich complain that they have to pay what our Middle class is.

  • PeoplePower

    Babs – you’re falling back to the “Cadillac driving welfare queen” that Reagan argued was prevalent throughout welfare recipients.

    They searched for a very long time. I *think* they found one example, which shot their theory down.

    Hmm, let’s look at my situation. I am unemployed. I haven’t applied for unemployment insurance yet (welfare) because my severance has not run out and I’m not allowed to double-dip (good rule!).

    If I go to this welfare line you boast will be filled with expensive toys and clothes, you would see me and be correct (for now). I drive a nice car. I own a cell phone. My clothes are nice, but they’re also not what I’d call expensive.

    Now, forward this situation ahead a few months, if the worst happens and I don’t get a job. I *might* still be driving a nice car and I *might* have my cell phone still. That’s because I *must* have a car and pr’ly need a cell phone in order to keep up my job hunt & get to my job when I find one.

    I can’t live on unemployment. It doesn’t pay the same as I was earnings, it’s about 1/3 of my earnings. I will begin having to sell off a bunch of my possessions to continue to keep up with my bills and pay for my house.

    If I managed to find a cash-only job, I might be able to hang on for a little longer, but unless it was steady and makes up for the 2/3rds of my missing salary, I will still be in trouble.

    Your generalities regarding welfare cheats is an old and tired argument that takes the *fact* that *some* people do try to cheat the system and explodes it into a huge, widespread system of corruption and cheating…

    The Democratic Party traditionally believes that you must first have boots in order to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

  • Stalin

    It is very easy for some people to say that paying more taxes is no big deal. 40% of this country doesn’t pay any taxes. I don’t think that many of you understand the relationship between taxes and government revenue. When taxes are reduced, government revenue goes up. You might want to read that statement again. The top 10% earners in this country account for 50% of consumer spending. When they have less money to spend that means less jobs available and more people not paying taxes. It is absolutely frightening to me that some of you people trust the government to spend your money wisely. Have they done so in the past? What makes you think they will suddenly be responsible with your money…YES YOUR MONEY. All this crap about building roads is ridiculous. State and local governments pay for most of the roads. Regardless, your money is not going to improve infrastructure, it is going to pay for health insurance and social securtity for other peope, because if you are under 50 those programs will be bankrupt by the time you need them. We have become a nanny state, which is a nice word for socialism. The constant handouts and bailouts is contributing to the overall decline in people going after the American Dream. You give people free housing, free health care, free retirement funds, free education, etc then why bother doing anything for yourself? You cannot mix socialism and capitalism, it’s a recipe for disaster.

  • JD

    “Your generalities regarding welfare cheats is an old and tired argument that takes the *fact* that *some* people do try to cheat the system and explodes it into a huge, widespread system of corruption and cheating…

    The Democratic Party traditionally believes that you must first have boots in order to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. ”

    Nail on the head, People Power. You are also assuming that people who use that theory have actually been to a welfare office which 99% of them have not.

    Don’t worry, if the Job loss in this country continues in the trend it is…people are going to start singing a different tune about taxing the rich fairly and getting a helping hand to get them back on thier feet.

    But they will they pull the foot out of their mouths??

  • XYZ

    Rich people do three things:

    1) Spend their money
    2) Invest their money
    3) Own and operate businesses

    The more money the government takes from them in taxes, the less of these things they will do. The government’s ability to do these three things better than the wealthy person is unproven and unlikely.

  • Babs

    PeoplePower, unemployment insurance and welfare are two entirely differnet systems. To collect unemployment benefits, you have to have held down an actual job. Welfare, not so much. And if you believe my theory is outdated, you are truly out of touch. I don’t know where you live, but try coming to my neck of the woods where the retail economy runs around two days out of the month – the days the welfare checks come. Then check your government payroll for the number of “welfare fraud agents” it employs. My neighbor is one, and her workload is huge, because of this “tired old theory” as you call it. It’s not a theory, it’s a fact and a big problem in America.

    Stalin is right, 40% of the people in this country don’t even pay taxes, and a large percentage of those get an income tax refund that equals more than they paid in during the year. So Obama’s promise to not raise taxes on 95% of Americans is false, they already don’t pay taxes. He should try saying he’ll not raise taxes on 55% of americans, but oh wait, that would be the $42K annual salaries that he’s already voted to increase taxes on.

  • What a terrific discussion this eye-catching headline seems to have generated.

    The headline, as some (Michael!) have dubbed a piece of “commentary,” is simply Biden’s own words!

    A more boring headline could have read “Biden defends tax hikes as patriotic,” would that have been less offensive? I’m using the man’s own words here!

    Agree or disagree with him or me, that’s what the comment section is for. I don’t write commentaries so occasionally I enjoy my chance to comment on the news with a catchy headline.

    Really, from my perspective, Biden could have made this statement in a much more tactful way. Instead he sounded condescending in the sense that he wants to “take money” from people and give it to other people. He did not say “take money” from people and build roads or improve schools. He said “take money” from the wealthy and redistribute it to get the economy moving which is code for wealth redistribution.

    If he had said “take money” and build a bridge, a school, or a road, then this would be a different conversation. He wasn’t speaking of infrastructure, he was speaking of something else.

    My bet is that taxpayers would be more likely to accept higher taxes for a specific project rather than an open-ended reason such as Biden’s. He’s not proposing higher taxes for a specific reason, more so he thinks the government can spend it better for a generic philosophy rather than the people spending it better themselves.

    Just clarifying my perspective.

  • Babs

    Don’t worry Nate, we didn’t pay any attention to Michael’s jab, we like the article.

    More evidence that this is NOT about roads and bridges. It’s about exactly what I said it is:

    “Obama and Biden will embrace the Millennium Development Goal of cutting extreme poverty around the world in half by 2015, and they will double our foreign assistance to $50 billion to achieve that goal,” the candidates vow in their campaign platform.”

    We’re in a economic crisis, and they’re pledging $50 BILLION dollars to poverty abroad.

  • PeoplePower

    Right. We’re in an economic crisis and giving $50 billion to poverty is bad. Umm, I don’t agree, but that’s fine, and not my point here. Besides, that’s a *pledge* not a guarantee.

    So, an $85 billion dollar loan to save AIG is okay? Granted, it protects a huge company that is providing jobs, but this whole “Free Market is all we need” seems a hollow statement whenever a big company needs a bailout.

    Very typical of Republican policy – privitize profits and socialize losses. Where is the outrage from Republicans and fiscal conservatives over this?

    Babs – you complain about welfare being abused and costing us a lot of money.

    I would submit that corporate welfare costs us more money.

    Corporate welfare is not *all* bad and neither is people welfare. They both have value, but need to both be used prudently.

    Eliminating social programs is not the answer. But I would agree that reforming them will help. Certainly, watch out for the cheaters.

    Still, keep in mind that the percentage of cheaters is tiny in comparison to the total number of people on the welfare rolls. So, the cost that they’re adding is minimal.

    But while you’re terribly worried about welfare cheats, who will cost us individually a tiny amount, we should very much be watching for corporate cheats who fleece us of huge amounts of money.

  • Bill Hedges

    Biden owes CPA Riddle $150,000 from 80’s run. Biden knows how to re-distribute wealth. As far as helping people, All book profits for McCain was donated to charities. Not for Obama

  • Bill Hedges

    A.I.G. Provides Insurance for people. Government was peotecting peopke as well

  • JD

    Bill – “A.I.G. Provides Insurance for people. Government was peotecting peopke as well”

    Seriously Bill, did you just say that! A.I.G. “provides insurance for people”…wow…and Walmart provides Shampoo for people. What the does that have to do with the price of banana’s in brazil. Don’t divert the issue with meaningless points. The Unites States is not bailing out A.I.G. because it sells insurance.

    PowerPeople is pointing out you and other people in the US complain about cheats at the welfare line when the largest corporations are running out the back door with all the money. Crying the whole time about paying taxes then holding a hand out when they are going bankrupt! Not to mention the millions in subsidies they get all along.

    Your breaking my heart Bill… I don’t know how old you are but you are making me sad. 🙁

  • Bill Hedges

    JD—That makes PEOPLE POWER a liar. I never said people cheat on welfair.. A LIAR he is.. Have him prove me a liar. He can not Might take what he says with a grain of salt

  • PeoplePower

    Umm, Bill, what the h*ll is this?

    You complain bitterly about labelling only to say such a thing? You’re proving your mettle and completely missing the point.

    To be *accurate*, I said Babs was complaining about people cheating on welfare, but you and Babs seem to agree talking-point to talking-point.

    So, if you never said people cheat on welfare, which I didn’t say you did nor have I seen you say, great.

    Still, it’s worth asking, do you think people cheat on welfare?

    The *point* is that corporate welfare and the Republican policy of privitizing profits and socializing losses costs this country magnitudes more than any welfare cheats that are out there.

    As you often say, focus on the issues, not on name calling.

  • Bill Hedges

    You need to read again, what JD said. Take your complaint to him.

  • Bill Hedges

    people power I did not name call. A fact is not name calling. I answered what Jp wrote.

  • PeoplePower

    And yet, you did not see *me* say that you said it.

    I read what JD wrote and am not responsible for him saying what he said.

    Re-read what *I* wrote, that JD was commenting on.

    A fact is not name calling. Did *I* say it? Does JD represent me? How is what you said a ‘fact’?

    And still you’re completely missing the point of what *I* said.

  • Bill Hedges

    People power–You saw what jd said. You saw what I said. I am not the one you need to talk to.

  • IndiMinded

    Biden doesn’t owe that money Bill. According to that’s a false rumor.

  • Bill Hedges

    IND–Yours doesn’t open for me. The one I checked said he did. Don’t know what to tell you

  • Bill Hedges

    Ind– I got yours to open. Yours does say he does not owe. Mine was some sort of check, I did not keep. Don’t know which to believe, so in doubt,, he is innocent and don’t owe. Thanks for info.

  • Bill Hedges

    Ind–I found my source,,,,,,It says it was true. He finally paid it off. Did not say when he paid off..

  • Bill Hedges

    Ind–Debt was from 1988 . Air plane bills. Paid off this year. Owed for about 20 years. That was info from your article. Maybe my copy was before paid in full. I guess.?? Long time to pay off campaign debt I would think..Maybe he paid off before taking V.P.?? Is Biden rich ??

  • Dreadsen

    This is funny

    “JD—That makes PEOPLE POWER a liar. I never said people cheat on welfair.. A LIAR he is.. Have him prove me a liar. He can not Might take what he says with a grain of salt ”

    I made the same challenge on an error Bill made. Now he knows what is like when someone rams things in your mouth then won’t own up to doing it. Instead of the clarification he choose to just concede.

  • Bill Hedges

    Ind- sorry, I read it wrong. He made 3 payment for $150,000. first in Jan. 2008. Last one was in July. Was for this presidental race…. 1988 is wrong…that was something else..

  • Bill Hedges

    Deadsen–You never have never proved me wrong. jd misquoted people power.. I called p/p liar on what jd said. That makes me,,, not wrong..logic is not your strong suite

  • Bill Hedges

    D- you idiot, if you looked at the series of comments you you would know better..maybe

  • Bill Hedges

    d- go to obama and mccain differing econmic thread . at bottom, i have comment for you there

  • Dreadsen

    I Thought through welfare reform there was no more career welfare people. This was killed in Clinton Administration.

    Welfare a White Secret,9171,974473-1,00.html

    Welfare Reform

    I believe there may be small patches where there are people who live very poorly and collect some kind of check.But it is not a BIG problem in America. And since the welfare reform from my area there were not more career welfare people.

    Something for you all to think about.

    When the average person thinks of someone on welfare what type of person comes to mind? What race? What description?
    I believe this is what fuels some peoples obsession with the hate for welfare. And some vote for the Candidate who will not be nice to these “people”.

    ” “Public and congressional deliberations over… welfare reform in the last few years have been fueled by distortions and outright falsehoods about poverty,” the National Urban League asserted in its 1988 report, Black Americans and Public Policy. “Welfare reform is not solely a Black issue, but one in need of immediate attention.”

    Turning welfare reform into a “Black issue” makes racial scapegoating easy and allows stereotypes, like the Reaganera “welfare queen,” to go unchallenged, public aid supporters say. Rightwing reformers cast Whites as “deserving” clients who are legitimately unable to pay their own way through no fault of their own. Blacks are labeled “undeserving” recipients who are looking for the feds to subsidize their slothfulness.”

    Oh and by the way this $42,000 tax that Obama voted for in the past is of no reflection of his future tax plan. Like i’ve said before if someone past is a reflection of their future than i would fear some of the social votes which McCain voted on in the past to be an indicator of what he is going to do in the future.

  • I think Bill is getting a hard time here. He has 4 dozen one-liners he’s picked up from Rush and Hannity to get through in a day and you people aren’t letting him meet his quota 😉

    Anyhooo, only 5% of the population is going to be affected by Obama’s tax increase and 2% of them are Democrats, that leaves about 45% of the population complaining about a tax increase that isn’t going to affect them one way or the other.

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    Go here. You wouldn’t let me prove you wrong because you wouldn’t address any of the other points i raised but the ONE point which we didnt’ come to an agreement. But i’ll concede and say you were right on the one point even though it was a misunderstanding. But your tactic to keep bringing back to the one point you felt you were right about so you can avoid the other points i was raising wasn’t working. When i asked you about the points which you avoided you accused me of trying to win and didn’t want to respond! LOL!

  • Dreadsen

    “I think Bill is getting a hard time here. He has 4 dozen one-liners he’s picked up from Rush and Hannity to get through in a day and you people aren’t letting him meet his quota”


  • Bill Hedges

    people power–jd said it wrong. that is correct. i did not read what you said at that time.. i called you liar based on his jd comments. your apolize needs to come from jd if you want it.. he caused it. not me, i had good reason to say it from jd comments.. i was right based on his information. from now on i will spell things out for you so you can understand. it seemed so obvious to me. if you do not think it was obvious, i will ask babs to look at it to see if i was right about it being obvious. just let me know..

  • Bill Hedges

    d– i conceeded because i wished not to correspnd with you any more. But if you want to play games..let me know and we can play.

  • Bill Hedges

    puddy== i ignore you but if you wish to play, tell me now

  • What is even remotely strange about him saying this? If people want to benefit from living in the U.S., with free public schools and our social safety net, not to mention incredibly huge corporate welfare, they have to pay their fair share in keeping the whole system running. That’s called taxes. Now that the Republicans have decided that investment and banking companies are also worthy of corporate welfare and loans and buyouts from the federal government, an amazing display of corporate socialism! it’s clear we are a full-on socialist country and the irony is, it’s the Republicans who brought us here! Now if they could only be generous to spread some of that nice socialism down to the working class folks, we could all be happy along with the rich fat CEOs who walked away with $640 BILLION in profits from the taxpayers of this country. Yeah, the middle class. Aren’t the rich Republicans patriotic enough to chip in? Seems not. But we can sure bail out their giant financial corporations, can’t we.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – *you* really need to be careful implying whom doesn’t understand something.

  • Bill Hedges

    people power– if you understand, then why all of your comments to me. jd caused the problem by his action. I did not read your comment till later. Except for his action I would not have said what I said.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – are you kidding?

    Okay, let’s take an analogy:

    Bush has a press briefing and his direct quote is printed in a newspaper, unedited.

    A journalist misrepresents what he said in the summary of his speech that directly follows his direct quote.

    And you decide that Bush is a liar based upon what was said?!?

    Let’s take this specific example:
    1. I say “Babs is wrong about X”
    2. JD generalizes it to say “PP said you’re all wrong about X”
    3. You call me a liar

    And I’m supposed to be upset with JD that *you* called me a liar? Nice.

    Okay – Hey, JD, can you tell me you’re sorry that Bill called me a liar? Although, maybe you should apologize to Bill for forcing him to call me a liar…

    Bill – your choice was clear, call me a liar or scroll up to what JD was commenting on to see what *I* had said. Because you chose the wrong path, everyone else is to blame?

    Here and I thought you were all about taking responsibility for your actions. Although, I guess you’ve never said that, so maybe you really are a “pass the buck” kinda guy. I’d hate to misrepresent you.

  • Bill Hedges

    People power. I stated my position. You may like it or not. I don’t care.

  • Bill Hedges

    People power–Lets use your first analogy–The guy makes a summary following Bush direct quotes. But he makes a mistake. I read this article. I get angry. Bush has said bad thing, I nrver said that. Bush is a liar…But Bush hears I called him a liar. He confonts me. Bill, I did not say that about you. I say yes you did. Read this article. Bush reads and gets mad. I will get that writer fired for miss quoting me.. Bill I see why you thought that.

  • JD

    PeoplePower – “Okay – Hey, JD, can you tell me you’re sorry that Bill called me a liar? Although, maybe you should apologize to Bill for forcing him to call me a liar…”

    Wait a minute… I just figured out where the breakdown in communication happened and I want to apologize for it.

    You see, I should have never addressed Bill Hedges. It is so clear now. He is the broken link in the telephone game.

    PowerPeople… Will you forgive me if I promise to never talk to Bill again.

    Babs and I have a love that might be going somewhere(fingers crossed) so I am not going to give her up but I would gladly trade Bill for a pack of gum.

  • Bill Hedges

    P/P—We have gone over this enough. In the days to come folks can make their own minds up on this if they read it. If they care .

  • Bill Hedges

    JD–all you have to do is quote somebody correctly. If you did that, this would not have happemed..

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – I agree, let’s drop it. Just bear in mind that *you* called me the liar.

    Your “no labels” stance is greatly weakened (I’m counting you calling Dreadsen an idiot in this assessment), but we can move on.

    And, since we’re moving on, if you’d care to actually look at the points I made, we could perhaps get back to discussing the issues…

    JD – hahahahahahahaha. Though I won’t hold you to that promise, you are forgiven. Good luck with your starry-eyed love affair. My fingers are crossed. 😉

  • Bill Hedges

    P/P– I only wish JD could quote you right, then I would not have called you a liar. So I have dropped it as well

  • I think Bill has met his quota everyone, move along to the next thread 😉

  • Nate (other)

    I don’t think very many people are looking at the actual tax plans of either candidate. people will end up paying less in taxes with Obama as president. With McCain as president the top 1% of those making money will have to pay more in taxes than the other 99% of those in this country.

    With having Bush for president for the last 8 years it has been a disservice to tax payers everywhere. Most of our taxes have gone to the war and abroad. Not very much has been left for us domestically. That’s why we have failing institutions from the police, schools and libraries, to clinics, radio, and social security. McCain would likely continue that through tax cuts for the rich and corporations. That money doesn’t come back to the American people. But with Obama in office we are more likely to focus on programs here at home and keep money in the pockets of the middle class or the 99% and reduce the cost of many of the programs we tend to take for granted in this country. That’s more money in the pockets of America so Obama’s policy is not to raise taxes but in a sense lower them for far more people than McCain would. If you don’t believe me then do some research at multiple sources besides what you usually read.

    Another thing is that the reason for the bad economy is not the Democrats or the Republicans making errors in governing, but the average Americans who take out what they can’t pay back. The governments problem is not regulating the banks.

  • Todd

    Let’s see the Republican’s bail out Fannie and Freddie the biggest two mortgage holders in the country, AIG one of the biggest mortgage insurers in the country and thus prevent the wholesale collapse of the mortgage/home ownership system in this country and the biggest stock market in the world and the Republican’s are bad for it. You guys have all kinds of problems with who MaCain associates with but you seem to totally ignore the fact that the guys who ran Fannie and Freddie into the ground are the 2nd and 3rd largest donors to the Obama campaign. And at the same time Obama refused to vote for a bill which would have even hinted at controlling those two companies—it’s ok though we all are going to vote for our candidate and therefore I guess we can all tell ourselves what ever makes us feel good in doing so.

    So justify away the fact that ANY government official wants to take more of our money and not cut ANY spending—-seems most of you really do believe Obama’s increase in most business taxes and personal investments will really not hurt you, just hope you don’t retire and collect from your 401K while he is president, you may see how a 35% Capital gains tax rate really does work against you.

    There is no way you liberal Obama loving folks would have given Republican’s credit for anything if you had to.

    Democrats can sell you anything they want and you will buy it.

    Let’s see, instead of using the Buffet argument in support of closing loop holes you guys use it to support higher taxes. This proves you will buy anything. Wouldn’t closing the tax holes cause the rich to pay “their fair share” (another stupid comment you guys have bought considering that even with the loop holes they still pay 90% of them)

  • Bill Hedges

    Todd– America has one the world’s highest Corporate taxes, a reason for loses of jobs overseas. Founder of Walmart used to brag they sold American products. Today there stuff says,, made in China. Companies do not pay taxes. Tax is past on to the comsumer. Thus higher hidden tax is paid by the poor, midle class, and rich.. Obama will raise taxes on Walmart, but you will pay it, when you shop Walmart. To stay competitive , more will be .. made in China. Losing more jobs in America. Great way to raise taxes, OBAMA…

  • PeoplePower

    Todd – not everything revolves around tax cuts.

    Ronald Reagan gave a speech asking how you spell ‘fee’ and he said, ‘t-a-x’. It’s simply a tricky way to collect taxes that isn’t always the most fair to the common good.

    When you lower taxes, programs either become underfunded or they start charging fees to cover their expenses. Everytime that happens, the fees go up and up.

    Sometimes that makes since and isn’t horrible, but fees can be terribly regressive.

    If I grew up in a broken household and went to a badly ran K-12 school and could not manage a college degree because I was busy working to help the family and barely scraping by, do I deserve to be punished with a “user fee”?

    If I am busting my butt to try to succeed, should be helped along to make up for my difficult beginnings or just left to rot on the vine because I don’t make enough money or come from a wealthy enough family to be given help?

    I know there are always stories Republicans like to bring up pointing to “corruption here” and “cheating there” – claiming that “these social programs are ruining us.”

    Frankly, the percentage of cheaters and the amount they make from these social programs is an extremely tiny drop in the bucket. The *majority* of people using the existing social safety nets use them for their intended purpose – “catch me when I fall, so I can get back on my feet again.”

    I guess an important piece to my philosophy needs to be addressed here – I believe *strongly* that every American has value and deserves a shot at achieving the American Dream. I also don’t expect that everyone will or can, but they deserve a shot. Also, when we all do better, we all do better – I think that was Paul Wellstone (D-MN), may he rest in peace.

    Oh, and to be clear, especially for the few roving people from outside the U.S., I *do* believe you also have value and deserve a shot at a good life wherever you may be. Props to my Swedish, German & Irish roots! 😉

    There is one thing (well, pr’ly a few more things) that we can agree upon – closing loopholes and actually enforcing the existing laws will go a long way in cutting down on crime, frauds, cheats and tax-evaders (etc.). Also, working to make government efficient and effective – by this I’m referring to the various agencies – will go a long way too.

    A good example is the speed limit – if you *know* the police are actually enforcing it, you *know* to keep your speed really close to the limit. If they enforce it willie-nillie, you may risk pushing the limits a little more.

    BTW – welcome back. You’ve been awfully quiet. Where have you been? (I hope not in Ike’s path!)

    Though we disagree on a fair number of things, you generally have thoughtful posts (despite some of the vitriol you spewed above) and I *appreciate* the substantive discussion!

  • PeoplePower

    Todd – one other thing, you say that “Democrats have already decided that Obama is their man.” Right. Just as “Republicans have already decided McCain is their man.”

    There are a few still undecided, but a lot of people (sadly) make their decisions based upon party and that’s enough for them.

    Bill – corporate taxes have been pretty low under Bush and for a good while. I’d like you to point out where you’re getting your info that “America has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world”.

    Even with these low rates, WalMart still carries a vast majority of products from China. I will never shop their, barring an emergency, so long as they have so many products from China and have such reprehensible labor practices – would much rather pay a little more for better products from companies still carrying American products.

  • Bill Hedges

    People power– If you go to Wikipedia- Corperate tax rate around the world, they have a map and the tax rate

  • Bill Hedges

    People Power– I explained Walmart the best I can in last comment.

  • Bill Hedges

    People Power–I believe I said one of the World’s highest rates

  • Bill Hedges

    People Power– Excuss my 207am comment. I have no button to erase. Price affects tax income for Government.. I may be wrong, but I believe in Clinton times they decided to raise tax on Luxuary Boat. Income to Government actually went down after tax increase.. Less people bought expensive Boats. Another example is gas tax. Although the tax has not gone up, the gas has jumped up. Tax raised from gas has gone down.. Raising taxes do not always get the results wanted….Corperate tax is paid by the cunsumer, as a hiden tax.

  • Bill Hedges

    Obama & Speaker of Houses wishes to raise taxes on oil companies. ..indirect taxes on people. At the pumps, there is no sign of tax increase. But cost of oil rises. Anything made of oil.., aspirin, plasic, etc, rise in cost. Transpotation cost rises on things you buy… Your gas rises… All this taxes you pay. But do not realize it. Called indirect taxes… This tax causes your 401k, retirement plan, and stock value to lose value..

  • Dreadsen


    Thank god you are back.

  • Bill Hedges

    Todd–I bet you would agree with me, one of American’s finest Presidents was a Democrat. Name L.B.J…He is best known for lifting his hound dog off the ground by the ears. For his rich wife that owned radio stations. But far more than that, he had a greater acomplishment. He may have gotten more important ligislation passed than any other President. As Congressman. he worked both sides to get bills passed. As president he worked both sides to get bills passed for euqual rights. I was rasied Democrat, I admired this great President today.. Unfortunetly, Viet Nam marred his Presidetcy. He refused to run again. What a shame. there are many simularities beween L.B.J. and J.McCain….Both had rich wives. Lucky guys. Both Spent time in Congress. Worked with the other side to get bills passed into law..

  • Todd


    I usually admit when I am running the company line but I was not doing that in my post. I was trying to say that raising taxes is not and should not be the option relied upon by the government.

    As a democrat I would think the national debt would be a problem for you. If that were the case plus your documented hurdles you would see that out of control spending is the problem not the need to raise taxes and take more of your money.

    Bush now but historically democrats have spent our money with no constraints and just raised taxes to make it up.

    Non discretionary spending is now 20% higher than discretionary spending. In other words 70% of the federal budget is spent on Medicare, Social Security and other social needs. Military spending is discretionary so before you could argue that I had to respond.

    The American Dream is just that it is not up to the government to give us a hand up or for that matter to push us back. It is up to you and I or the individual. The government should have a neutral effect on our lives.

    It is interesting to me that our more liberal friends on this site seem to believe otherwise. It is also very interesting to me that you seem to have no problem with more taxes but accept Obama’s plan to spend almost twice what Bush has spent. Once again I will say–control spending and you do not have to raise ANY taxes, CLOSE THE LOOPHOLES AND YOU WILL GET THE MONEY YOU CLAIM THE RICH ARE DENYING YOU.

    Oh one more thing, the fact that democrats continue to yell about bailing out companies and the money Bush is/has spent is simply hilarious considering the fact that both Dodd (Mr. Countrywide himself) and other dems are saying more money should be sent to “Main St”, why ? so they can tax it ? WHILE increasing the deficit that they complain about.

    By the way The Bill was wrong the U.S. has one of the Highest tax rates both personal and corporate in the world.
    Hey Obama I got a good idea lets tax us somemore.

    Thanks for asking about my absence though. I took the family to the beach.

    Dreadsen, The wall street news over the last week coupled with both candidates responses had me thinking. It was on point with Ron Paul’s issues—–does he have any grass roots programs he is trying to push or is there any effort to get him to run as an independent ?

  • Bill Hedges

    Todd– As usually I agree completely. I just wrote a comment on Hilarry lanches tread . Goes alone with your view I think. Thanks for support on high corporate taxes. Bush did lower them. People just did not undestand they are still too high. And Democrat Congressman will not point that out. Instead they push rich class responsiblity. . Money talks. Other countries have cheap labor, add high taxes and say good bye to manufacture jobs here and more. Good high paying jobs.

  • Bill Hedges

    Todd– I have been thinking about LOOPHOLES. Lord knows there must be a lot of bad LOOPHOLES. But some serve a good purpose. One’s useD to help develop low income housing. Or tax breaks for alternative energy and alternative fuel cars. I would hate to be in charge of tax reform. A lot rides on it.

  • Will

    Bill, your tactics are dirty and you’re a sore loser.

    “People power–Lets use your first analogy–The guy makes a summary following Bush direct quotes. But he makes a mistake. I read this article. I get angry. Bush has said bad thing, I nrver said that. Bush is a liar…But Bush hears I called him a liar. He confonts me. Bill, I did not say that about you. I say yes you did. Read this article. Bush reads and gets mad. I will get that writer fired for miss quoting me.. Bill I see why you thought that. ”

    First of all, you have access to PeoplePower’s comment. However, as a lazy person that you are, you chose not to confirm what JD said, and instead took his word for it.

    Second of all, JD is not a journalist (at least I haven’t seen him make that claim) and does not speak for PeoplePower.

    Third of all, you avoid and ignore points people make that you cannot rebuttal, and instead give an extra emphasis on the point you are correct on. I’m re-iterating what JD said, but I can’t stress what he said because following the thread where you two were debating, I couldn’t help but laugh at your course of actions in hiding the points you lost and time and again bringing out the one and only point you were barely correct on. Excellent dirty strategy. You must be a politician in training.

  • ben

    If taxes are raised on the wealthiest 1.9% of Americans, those who make over $250,000 a year, as the Obama/Biden plan calls for, it does not amount to politicians “taking your money.” It amounts to something very different: the people taking their money. Under any just tax system, the rich should pay a higher rate of taxes, and the burden should be relieved from the struggling middle class. Freedom is complicated to define, but if this country is to continue to be “The Land of the Free”, then the middle class must be free from not being able to afford a house, free from not being able to afford healthcare, etc. Higher taxes on the rich=increased freedom for everyone.

  • Bill Hedges

    Will–jd mis-quited what people power said. but all i knew was what jd said at that time. based on that i called p/p liar. Well jd did quote p/p. If you quote somebogy make sure it is right. You are right I do not always respond to being called dirty and sore loser. If jd does not speak for p/p then wht did he

  • Bill Hedges

    Will- I am not interested in following this subject. You have every right to follow your heart

  • Jameson

    Here is a question for you “But Warren Buffet says…” folks.

    Do you think Warren Buffet does more than his secretary to create new jobs, new wealth and that fabled “trickle down effect”? Sure he does. We shouldn’t tax him AT ALL. Every dollar left in the hands of the super-productive creates more wealth for our country that is shared by all in real life via increased technology, more jobs, more services, more imports/exports, more capital investment in charitable works.

    The thing is, Warren Buffet ought to know this, so I’m going to guess he has some trick up his sleeve other than higher taxes for himself.

    Taxing the top producers is like killing the goose that is laying golden eggs. You kill the ganders, the past-prime geese, and the geese that eat their own eggs, not the ones laying gold eggs.

    Econ 101.

    The top 5% are already paying around 80% of the taxes paid, I think that ought to be enough. Wonder what would happen to the economy if we stopped taxing them though.

  • Bill Hedges

    Jameson– Well said

  • Babs

    Since this thread is about Biden, I’m going to do something rare and throw in a kudos for him.

    Biden denounced the ad calling McCain a computer illiterate, calling it “terrible”, and said that if he had known about the ad beforehand it would not have aired.

    So, kudos to Biden for going against his boss one time. 😉