Economy takes center stage with Obama & McCain (Upd)

Given the current news surrounding Lehman Brothers and their bankruptcy filing has once again given both candidates a reason to talk economy. For Obama, this is a good chance to get back on his message and deliver some criticisms of Republican economic policy which he can try and link to McCain.

A report from Politico with Obama’s statement and McCain’s statement on the issue:

Barack Obama, 6:17 a.m. Eastern: “This morning we woke up to some very serious and troubling news from Wall Street. The situation with Lehman Brothers and other financial institutions is the latest in a wave of crises that are generating enormous uncertainty about the future of our financial markets. This turmoil is a major threat to our economy and its ability to create good-paying jobs and help working Americans pay their bills, save for their future, and make their mortgage payments.

“The challenges facing our financial system today are more evidence that too many folks in Washington and on Wall Street weren’t minding the store. Eight years of policies that have shredded consumer protections, loosened oversight and regulation, and encouraged outsized bonuses to CEOs while ignoring middle-class Americans have brought us to the most serious financial crisis since the Great Depression.

“I certainly don’t fault Senator McCain for these problems, but I do fault the economic philosophy he subscribes to. It’s a philosophy we’ve had for the last eight years – one that says we should give more and more to those with the most and hope that prosperity trickles down to everyone else. It’s a philosophy that says even common-sense regulations are unnecessary and unwise, and one that says we should just stick our heads in the sand and ignore economic problems until they spiral into crises.

“Well now, instead of prosperity trickling down, the pain has trickled up – from the struggles of hardworking Americans on Main Street to the largest firms of Wall Street. This country can’t afford another four years of this failed philosophy. For years, I have consistently called for modernizing the rules of the road to suit a 21st century market – rules that would protect American investors and consumers. And I’ve called for policies that grow our economy and our middle-class together. That is the change I am calling for in this campaign, and that is the change I will bring as President.”

Next, here’s McCain’s statement:

John McCain, 8:01 a.m. Eastern: “The crisis in our financial markets has taken an enormous toll on our economy and the American people — first the decline of our housing markets followed by the collapse of Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and now Lehman Brothers. I am glad to see that the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department have said no to using taxpayer money to bailout Lehman Brothers, a position I have spoken about throughout this campaign. We are carefully monitoring the financial markets, including the duress at Lehman Brothers that is the latest reminder of ineffective regulation and management. Efforts must also be focused on ensuring that the deposits of hardworking Americans are protected.

“It is essential for us to make sure that the U.S. remains the pre-eminent financial market of the world. This will be a highest priority of my Administration. In order to do this, major reform must be made in Washington and on Wall Street. We cannot tolerate a system that handicaps our markets and our banks and places at risk the savings of hard-working Americans and investors. The McCain-Palin Administration will replace the outdated and ineffective patchwork quilt of regulatory oversight in Washington and bring transparency and accountability to Wall Street. We will rebuild confidence in our markets and restore our leadership in the financial world.”

Another report from Politico on their differing views of the economy:

The candidates split Monday on the strength of the U.S. financial system, with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) declaring in Florida that “the fundamentals of our economy are strong” and the Obama campaign mocking the remark as out of touch with reality.

Sen Joseph Biden (D-Del.), the Demcorats’ vice-presidential nominee, said in St. Clair Shore, Mich: “I could walk from here to Lansing, and I wouldn’t run into a single person who thought our economy was doing well, unless I ran into John McCain.”

The remarks came as the campaigns struggled to calibrate their positions on the economy, the top issue with voters, following the “Black Sunday” collapse of the investment-banking giant Lehman Brothers and the sale of Merrill Lynch to Bank of America. The tectonic shift in the financial system looked sure to ripple down to consumers in the form of tighter credit, making it harder for people to buy cars and houses, or start or expand businesses.

The Obama campaign quickly posted the video of McCain’s comment about the economy, and Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) planned to call attention to the remark at an event later in the day.

McCain told a rally in Jacksonville, Fla.: “There’s been tremendous turmoil in our financial markets and Wall Street. … People are frightened by these events. Our economy, I think — still the fundamentals of our economy are strong. But these are very, very difficult times.”

More to come later on this story as it develops. The key here is that the debate, perhaps at least for a short time, has shifted back to being between McCain and Obama, not Obama and Palin.

More as it develops…

Update

Report on Obama and McCain’s reaction from CBS News:

A round table discussion from Fox News:

I’ve heard time and time again, from strategists on both sides, that the economy will always be the overriding issue in every presidential election. In most cases, I would generally agree with that because people like to complain about the price of this or that, which seems to translate into the voting booth.

In light of the news today, which will be major news for a few days as it plays out, it will be interesting to see where the general public places blames and which candidate benefits.

  • Stalin

    I want to see some prison time for some of these guys, including Obama’s buddy Jim Johnson from Fannie Mae. The taxpayers were left holding the bag, while these crooks made off with multi-million dollar golden parachutes.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Um John McCain is right when he says the fundamentals of our economy are strong. I dont understand why everyone goes crazy over that. He has evidence to prove it to. Last quarter the GDP was +3.3% which was higher than any liberal thought, considering they say it is in dire need of help. Also over the last 8 years we have had a lower unemployment rate than the previous 4 decades. The GDP has also been positive in every quarter even when all said it would not, it has. The fundamentals are in tact and I believe with McCain, and Palin not getting the government so involved in it, that it will come around, like it already has started to now.

  • Jeffords

    The fundamentals of our economy might be strong today, right now, but it won’t last. Credit is going to get tighter and tighter. The risks the investment houses took were bad bets and the economy has very little cushion to ward off a heavy blow. We will suffer for the duality of Bush’s tax cuts and spending to fund the war (I’m not saying either is wrong, but both together was not smart).

    Not to address what we can plainly see as a fundamental problem in the economy is at best duplicitous, at worst fraudulent. McCain better start talking about what he plans to cut in spending to match his tax cuts or he will lose my vote.

    Palin was a terrible choice (anyone look up her tour of colleges to get a degree) but I can live with that. More years of growing the government and cutting its revenue I can not tolerate.

  • Melvin

    Oil prices, and the trade deficit strike again.

  • nyth

    I fail to see how basically photocopying money (in the form of selling treasury notes abroad) to fund the government can be called “strong fundamentals”.

  • Dreadsen

    O.S. your talking point has already been debunked already. Especially the unemployment one. They pick the low number which is the number that was left from Bill Clinton but ignore that the unemployment has risen ever since then. When bill Clinton got in the unemployment was at 7 and declined the entire time all the way down. Provide your unemployment statistic and it’s source. And I’ll show you how they played with the numbers.
    Greenspan even just said himself that this is the worse economy he has ever seen in his life and he probably was around during the depression! lol

    What he should be pointing out is that most of these conditions really don’t have anything to do with George Bush himself. Instead of trying to spin catastrophe into a giddy with glee jamboree.

  • Pats

    Listen you noble American electorate, the strength of the fundamentals of the American economy is not what is questioned here. Every body , all over the world knows that the fundamentals of your economy have always been strong this is why America is what it is today, the world leaders. The decline of your economy is questioning your leaders’ ability to steer the fundamentals a healthy economy that will ensure ALL AMERICANS a decent living. What we need from the presidental candidates is to tell the Americans what they will do to remedy the deplorable state the economy is in. We need a leader who will develop the strength of the fundamentals not one who will deplete it further.

  • Dreadsen
  • Babs

    What amuses me yet again, Dreadsen, is this ad, and Obama and Biden yesterday, constantly saying “and I quote” before reading off HALF of John McCain’s statement from yesterday. There was a comma after that quote, not a period. This is just another use of american’s suffering that Obama has taken a “sound bite” of, and used as fodder against McCain.

    Don’t you find it ironic that after all his speeches yesterday on how americans are suffering and this economy is so bad, and he SO understands the plight of the working class………….that today he leaves the stump to play with his celebrity elites in California, at a fundraiser hosted by Barbra Streisand (bless the old goat’s heart) to the tune of $28,500 per plate and another $2500 a ticket to hear her sing again. Talk about from one extreme to the other! Seems to me that money sure could be useful to Ike victims right about now. Wonder why these free hearted celebs don’t do a fundraiser for them. 😉

  • Babs

    And also btw, aren’t these big celebs in that tax bracket that Obama is going tax the crap out of to give to the poor? Yeah, I thought so.

  • frapp

    Obama Biden 08.

  • Bill Hedges

    Democrat only bill for energy is being debated in HOUSE. No nuclear and have not heard about coal..Oil drilling has same restrictions as before. Which has stopped oil companies from being able to drill on government leased lands. $1.2 NEW YORK,,PORK,,non-energy matter was added to ENERGY BILL. Republican attempt to get this PORK out, but failed

  • Bill Hedges

    DEMOCRAT ENERGY BILL more details,,No government lease drill in Alaska. Problem is pipe line now is not flowing 100 %. If it drops too low it stops. 20 % of our oil gone. $50 a gaillion gas ?? Bill does not include hydro, slate oil, gasification of coal, or nuclear. Alaska and Lousianna has intrastucture which can begin oil production in short order. Oil States have no income so may not allow drilling. Restrictions on drilling has not been lifted. So even though drilling can occur, rules stop them. Makes no sense. That is why enviromenist are not protesting. Wind power is expensive. It needs high oil to compete..It must have this bill. Utilities are required to have 15% wind power. Your utilities will go up because of this bill……

  • Rayven

    Bill Hedges, where do you get that from,Wind power is expensive.I don’t think so;

    http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Cents_Per_Kilowatt-Hour

    where is the expensive wind power.
    It seems nuclear is expensive. Have you ever heard of pollution. Or does that matter. Does anything matter besides humans? Of course the gop (gas ,oil ,petroleum) party is going to tell you that( they work for the oil cartel) .That goes against logic. Wind power is renewable. Everything else you named is not.If there is a lot of commodity it is cheaper. If a commodity is diminishing it will be more expensive. So please use logic.
    Notice how the gop(grand OLD party) are big supporters of the most pollutant and expensive energy. So go ahead lets support the gop (gas ,oil ,petroleum)party they look out for us with pollution and expensive energy.Renewable energy bad right.

  • Bill Hedges

    RAYVEN–Hi SPEAKER..Her secret bill will not pass SENATE. So they say. Wind power cost more. My utility has wind avaiable, for a higher price. America will not be driving 50 % alternative fueled cars in 5 years. Alaska pipe line will c;ose when oil flow drops too low. Then gas $50 or more ???But we won’t be driving anyhow. No one will have a job. Good luck. You will lose. oh yeah, nuclear, hydro is re-newable. And you must agree with the Speaker, that Catholic church is not against abortion…She is something else. Waiting for the guys in white suites

  • Bill Hedges

    RAYVEN–For your LIBERAL EXTREME INFORMATION. Hydrgen fuel does pollute. Not From the tail pipe of a car. But in the manufature of that fuel…SORRY….BP and General Electric built plant in California to produce the fuel for hydrogen cars I understand if you live in a little, bitty area of that State, you can find fuel for hydrogen cars. Do you think in a decade there will enough of those cars in America for stations to exist to supply that fuel…….NO…With enough hydrogen fuel plants…..For your information, BP stands for British Petroium. A dirty old oil company..

  • Bill Hedges

    RAYVEN–Why are you not protesting THE SPEAKERS continued and expanded oil drilling bill. Your kind don’t protest because THE SPEAKER bill does not really allow drilling. The bill is a shame. The drilling, global warming or now called global change ( because globe is not warming) and you are more shame…….

  • Bill Hedges

    RAYVEN I worked in a Health Dept. a few years back. America put up a new weather satilite. News came out that a hole existed in the ozone. Few days later I saw some enviomental employees laughting. They told me about the hole. The old weather satilite did not measure zero. Thus, that hole could have existed since the beginning of time…..Next, temperature guages awhile back was placed to take note of temperature changes across America. A indepent group find temperatures were not matching know numbers. What was found that some gauges was set inproperly. On top of asphalt, next to air condtioners, etc…You see, I don’t trust or believe you. There are groups ofMaking temperature hotter.. Equally good science groups disagreeing with those you like.

  • Rayven

    The earth is imbalanced Bill Hedges . The more carbon in the atmosphere the more the weather changes. We will watch our oceans heat up first.They will get warmer and plant life will grow lot more . At a certain point that process will choke the oceans. But that won’t affected us at all.As more and more of the ice caps melt the oceans will stop recycling itself. warmer waters will cause more sever hurricanes. And I’m sure the gop will help the people them and there small government and privatization.What will we do when the oceans die.too much carbon and planet cooks .too less carbon the planet freezes. And I know that BP is an oil company.Please lets not discount info because it is not the right party. We need more diversity in our energy policy.Nuclear is dirty energy.Oil companies have too much of a monopoly over our energy.Why not natural gas?And lets take care of the planet where we live in every way.That includes the plants and animals. Be Blessed , and harm none.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Rayven do not start with some global warming BULLSH**. Liberals always display the facts incorrectly when talking about climate change.

  • Bill Hedges

    .Your comprehension of what I wrote is 0 %. Altantic ocean is acually colder. You say you know bp is oil company, but I wrote more about that. No response. On envionmental issues is your mind dead to other information. If you wish to respond to m comments, then I will talk issues with you.. Otherwise, waste of time.

  • Bill Hedges

    Obama sucks–I wrote facts for rAYNEN, BUT NO RESPONSE ON THAT

  • Bill Hedges

    According to Hannity and
    Colmes–they read article that in 2005, mcCain asked for reform of Fanny Mae and FReddy. That there was finacial problems.. According to article, Democrats shot it down

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    I would love to talk climate change with rayven right now to Bill! Funny thing is how liberals are always coming up with some new conspiracy. Just 40 years ago they were saying there was going to be another ice age. Well that never happened and this whole global warming and climate change stuff is pure crap. Why do you think 30,000 scientists are suing Al Gore!

  • Bill Hedges

    ONAMA SICK—She won’t debate with us..they want to repeat and repeat their view many times so you will accept their facts. Anwering fact confueses them

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Yeah but than when a republican tries to debate them they dont, but if they want to debate and we do they just complain completely about us and how were all neocons or some evangelical crazies, whihc really gets me mad. RAYVEN LETS DEBATE COMEON!

  • Bill Hedges

    name calling is a favorite, especialy with mccain leading in polls

  • Dreadsen

    “Mars, Jupiter and Pluto warmed at the same rate as earth, Lord Moncton noted. Since they are not known to have factories or SUVs, he concluded the most recent warming was caused by the sun, not Man.”

    Maybe there are aliens on those planets poluting them helping aid the global warming on those planets.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/07/gores_plan_just_a_dream.html

    Bill Hedges would you mind posting some links so we can reference your facts? There is a lot of evidence which supports global warming. But the argument is if it is man made or not. If it is not man made then all of the green won’t do anything. There are a lot of conservatives who believe it is man made and there are some who think it is not. So stop with the bigotry liberal name calling as bill hedges put it.

  • Bill Hedges

    wHAT BIGOTRY LIBERAL NAME CALLING DID I USE. WHAT FACTS DO YOU WANT LINKS TO

  • Dreadsen

    Sorry bill that part i was refering to O.S.

    You made a good point about it being bigotry to label people and attacking them based on that label.

    The facts you presented to Rayven.

  • Bill Hedges

    O.K. You said it after my name sooo. What with that last comment on the other tread ? You twisted my words. You know what I said about that

  • Rayven

    Bill Hedges, I told you exactly what the problem was. It may be the Atlantic may be cold now ,but like what happens when the ice melt in your glass of water the waters start getting warm. So are you saying that the ice caps melting won’t have any affect.

    http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Temp/2008.htm

    As a whole the earth seem to be heating up.
    It is a natural accordance ,one of the earths cycles.The more carbon on the planet it cooks. Less carbon on the planet it freezes.Our contribution is cutting down the forest which absorb carbon and store it ,using fuel which releases concentrated carbon (ancient sun light). So we may not be at fault be we are contributing.watch a movie called crude;

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5797240072407639740&hl=en

    And I still don’t see any fact from you guys.As you can see I am more than willing to dig up facts.Tell me what you think of the movie.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill Hedges – thanks for bringing up the bigotry of labels. You’re correct with that and I would very much love to see you bring it up to those who generalize about Liberals and Democrats as well as those who generalize about Conservatives and Republicans – or any other political philosophy or party (there are more than 2 of each).

    All – I also very much agree with Dreadsen. It’s all fine and good sounding to say, “this is a lot of bunk and unproven”. PLEASE include your references so that you can educate us (apparently) misguided Liberals.

    They changed the name from “Global Warming” to “Global Climate Change” because the impact will not always be a heating of the planet. Some places will get hotter, others cooler. Weather will be more chaotic and harder to predict and storms will get nastier.

    We’re not talking about this happening tomorrow. But it is an accelerating process that will happen in the next several decades or perhaps a century, if we do nothing.

  • Bill Hedges

    People–I wrote earlier on this tread a few of my persoal knowldge on Glogal thing. I would appreciate you reading it and tell me what you think. Wold be nice to talk about something other than politics

  • PeoplePower

    As for renewable energy sources vs. fossil fuels, etc.:

    Providing Wind Power being mandated is a good thing, despite it being more expensive (or it was, before oil got so pricey), as there’s something called supply & demand in place. The more the energy companies need to provide, the more they need to build to meet the demand. The more they build, the better price-per-unit of energy they’ll generate and the costs will come done…

    Since we have so neglected President Carter’s calls to steer away from oil (yes – in the late 1970’s), we haven’t developed enough wind power sources to make it cost-effective. Now we *need* it at least as much as we’d prefer to have it.

    The same thing goes for other renewable sources of energy and other modes of powering our automobiles.

    We should be exploring *every* option. And, yes, that includes drilling.

    We owe Saudi Arabia and China tons of money. We are beholden to dictators because we must have big, luxurious vehicles.

    Want a peaceful world?? Try driving fuel efficient vehicles and reducing your consumption. And work towards better, cleaner energy sources.

  • Bill Hedges

    I do not like labels on anybody. I rarely use a label, unless done to make a point about labels.

  • Bill Hedges

    people–It has came out that in 2005 McCain warned about fanny and freddy. Was shot down by demos…I put the source on one of these threads

  • Bill Hedges

    Nuclear provides France with 80% of their electric. They learn method for reuse of spent fuel or something. Because of Jane Fona movie, we stopped. 3 mile island was really nothing from my reading…….a no pollution energy

  • Dreadsen

    I would like to see this source about McCain warning about Fanny and Freddy.

    Eventhough i am skeptical of some of the Global Climate theories I fear that the only reason why some people want to shoot it down is because they don’t want to go in the green direction. There is nothing but a positive effect from being scared from Global Climate change. If a great effort is pushed to teach everyone that it is all a scam this could be very counter productive towards going green.

    People Power is correct about going green leading us to peace because it is one of the demands of the Islamic Terrorist. They claim we are stealing middle east oil by getting it at a cheap price. The other problem is countries who have a population who is not happy with our foreign policy holds the fate to our economy in our hands and this isn’t good. As long as that still stands the more we will have to fight to keep our country from collapsing.

    The problem I have with drilling as it stands. I actually would like drilling every damn where but there is a major problem. We do drilling here already and almost all of it is sold on the international market. 500,000 barrels a day coming from the Alaskan Northern Slope is ALL EXPORTED to Japan, China and South Korea. The theory in more drilling is to lower the price by increasing the supply on the GLOBAL international market. Which just means the american people could most likely still be buying the barrel for the international price. If we are producing it here we should at least get a break on it like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela does. they both pay like 30 – 50 cents a gallong. Even at that price the Oil companies would still be making a huge profit. But they would rather have an astronomical margin by selling it for the $100+ price range. This still doesn’t take into account Opec can just slow down production to match our increased supply and we will still end up paying the same amount of money. I know conservatives aren’t going to like the idea of the government intervening but i think they should offer all the drilling they want as long as they can have some control guaranteeing that we get it at a cheap price and they can sell the remaining on the international market. Right now there is a chance that they can do all the drilling and we still end up paying the same amount of money.

  • nyth

    Solar or wind are incapable of ever realistically meeting even current energy demands. They are perfectly capable of supplementing some of our energy needs, but not all.

    Nuclear, however, is very clean, very efficient, and can probably provide us with power until the sun goes red giant. Nuclear has gotten a very bad, and undeserved reputation due to isolated incidents that were blown out of proportion.

    Like, for instance, more radioactive particles are emitted nearly daily from the coal that we burn then Chernobyl or 3 mile meltdowns.

    Anyway, I recommend checking out the Wikipedia page on the subject, as it is fairly informative.

    Also, a quote I found somewhere related to partisan (republican specifically) platform compared to reality:

    “The only presidents since 1963 to have ever submitted balanced budgets to Congress are Johnson and Clinton. At no time since 1945 when Republicans have been in charge of both Congress and the White House have they ever reduced spending.

    The vast majority of the national debt to date was accrued during the Presidencies of three men: Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, all Republicans. In Reagan’s case, he was working with a Republican Senate for his first 6 years in office, and Bush had Republicans controlling both houses for 6 years as well.

    The Bush II years have seen tax cut after tax cut that were, in theory, supposed to result in increased growth and therefore reduced deficit. Instead, he has posted record deficits year after year. And still, the fiction that large tax cuts will somehow reduce the deficit persists.

    The idea that Democrats are the big spending party and Republicans are fiscally responsible is pure fiction, and it boggles the mind why people continue to believe it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Even the “big spending” LBJ was more fiscally responsible than the Republicans of the past 28 years.

    If people would treat politics less like religion maybe they would make decisions based on actual historical data rather than what their party keeps telling them is the truth.”

  • Babs

    Dreadsen, I don’t have a source for the McCain/Freddie, Fannie quote, though I’ve heard it repeatedly on the news the last few weeks. I do believe it was Andrea Mitchell (of the very biased MSNBC camp) that said of it “Bless his heart, McCain warned us”. I don’t think she would have said that if it weren’t true. But I’ll go back if I have time today and see if I can find you a quote.

    The reports Bill was giving on the bill in legislature yesterday was spot on, as it turns out, and I suspect he was watching the debate live on TV and reporting it. Good job, Bill.

  • Babs

    Dreadsen (and everyone) – here’s the source on McCain’s warning on Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae – fair and balanced source. 😉

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/record.xpd?id=109-s20060525-16&bill=s109-190

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–I was watching cspan yesterday. This energy issue is so important to America. It is sad it is,,,not,,a good bill. Hidden restrictions that stop drilling on government leased land ,,is in place still.. Off shore distance is troubling… I watched fox news channeling to see the Palins interview. Another one tonight. A very fair and insightful interview. The camera was on her for 4 hours. He said she was same on and off camera. Shows their home. Last night was her husband. Nice guy. .That show talked about article that showed in 2005 McCain called FANNY and Freddy was in trouble. Stopped by DEMOS…Show started here at 800 pm called HANNILTY & COLMES. I do not recall the article they were quoting from, but I assume a person could contact their web site and get the source…..Since that nasty McCains interview, I forced myself to watch ,,thE VIEW… The view said they would treat Obama the same if he appeared on their show. Well, one of the 3 democrat women said Palin should move to RUSSIA,,HA-HA..Russia was mentioned twice. I am still laughing.. If I mentioned a place where Obama should move, I might get bannd from this site. THE VIEW ,,SHOULD BE KICKED OFF AIR. No wonder with this show and Palin first interview, they are going to be careful with those that interview her. Her first interview the guy lied about a quote of hers..Jumping on her bElief in GOD. Where is the shame. I have comments of people on these treads making fun OF Sarah is not just doing all interviews. It is sad to hear that talk, when people don’t realize the whole true story.,,,,,,, Babs, that for the compliment. I enjoy reading your comment. Your humor is enjoyed as well..

  • Bill Hedges

    BABS–Great job of investigation. With such little information.. Maybe this would interest you. On that show I watched on Fox new,, I think it was this show,, not 100% certain. Could have been O’Reilly ( doubtfull) .. They said Obama knew about FANNY AND FREDDY trouble earlier, like year or whatever. I would guess this is really hard thing to dig up. But contacting show might give a clue..

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–This Fanny and Freddy revolation might make a great article for you to write.

  • Babs

    I’ll see what I can dig up on that issue, Bill. I do know that Freddie and Fannie donated a lot of money to Obama’s campaign. I’ll get that figure and post it, too. That shoots down Obama’s rhetoric about McCain’s lobbyist friends, I think.

    I figured you were watching C-Span. Again, good job, and thanks for posting it as it was happening. It made the news no surprise last night. 😉

  • Bill Hedges

    $85,000 FANNY

  • Bill Hedges

    BABS–Did you note the bank lobbyist Obama pointed out was ex Congressman from Texas-Gramham. i RECONIZE SOME OF THE OTHERS but Could NOT PLACE….On O’reilly last night they showed Obama was using a teleprompter. They said that was new for him. Said Obama,,, might,,,be losing it..Frankly I never watch Obama, so I take them at their word on the prompter

  • PeoplePower

    Babs & Bill – the Fanny/Freddy warning S. 190 was killed in committee (Banking, Housing & Urban Affairs).

    McCain wasn’t the primary sponsor of the bill. Doesn’t that mean that he wasn’t the originator of the bill, but rather joined in with Hagel to support it? So, Chuck Hagel (R-NE) deserves the most credit. Still, McCain deserves credit for supporting the bill – although, if I had the time, I’d like to read the bill to see what all was in there. There may be pork or wild corporate welfare included.

    It has nothing to do with Obama. Obama was not even a Senator when this bill was up for consideration. Look at the title of the bill “Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005”.

    Also, since this was in 2005. The Republicans controlled the committees and could push anything through to the Senate floor that they had unanimity on. Thus, it wasn’t only the Democrats who killed this bill. At least one Republican had to join in on the killing of it in committee. More so, for any Democrat who wanted it passed along.

  • Bill Hedges

    People Power– Have you checked above Babs source ? I have not got into yet

  • Bill Hedges

    People–Re read my comment about Obama ,I said year or whatever

  • Bill Hedges

    People I did not say McCain sponsored the bill..Joining in the bill is sign of concern. You said it was killed in Banking Committee,, That says bad things about the committee. ……. I will make a guess here…I believe pork is added after committee and during debate in the house or senate. Babs should be able to answer that for sure….

  • Bill Hedges

    PeopIe— I wrote,,they said Obama knew about Fanny and Freddy…………. earlier, maybe year or whatever. I thought Babs could find out since she is great at investigaing. I feel it is germane to issues of the day. There may be no proof or truth to this.

  • Babs

    PeoplePower, Bill is right, whether or McCain sponsored any bill is not in question. A source was asked for as to when McCain spoke out about Freddie and Fannie and I furnished that source. It was in May 2006 in an address to congress, the link to which I gave. The specific issue in question was his warning about the intstitution at that time:

    “For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac–known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs–and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO’s report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO’s report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.”

    This is a small portion of that speech, but in case you didn’t read it and didn’t understand the context of the issue being discussed, maybe this will help you.

    As to whether the bill passed or failed is irrelevant to this particular discussion. We can explore that if you see a purpose to it, however.

  • Bill Hedges

    BABS–One of PeoplePower question concerned PORK. Is that added after committee, or is it be added before too. I am not sure either

  • Bill Hedges

    Mrs. Obama made top 10 best dressed list

  • Dreadsen

    McCain Embraces Regulation after many years of opposition

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/16/AR2008091603732.html?hpid=topnews

    How does this fit in?

  • Babs

    I don’t know, Bill. When a bill is presented before the legislature for debate and voting, I think it’s supposed to be submitted in its entirity at that time. That would mean whatever pork is hidden in the bill, is probably there at that time.

  • Melvin

    Bill Hedges,
    You are correct that France uses nuclear power to a much wider extent, and use recycled rods. I applaud them for that, and having energy and communications as my fields of expertise have known for many years of their program to reuse over 90% of spent rods. The issue we have is that it is completely against US policy to reuse them. That I believe is the biggest mistake in US energy rules.

    For those of you that believe we haven’t completely tamed the nuclear monster and learned how to use it safely you must not have heard of an organization called The United States Navy. I use to sleep 3 rooms over from a nuclear reactor, in a bunk that was welded to the outer walls SCBM launch tubes. Not once did I ever feel in danger. Nuclear power is an excellent source of power, and even the “Waist” hard water has some beneficial uses.

    However drilling for more oil is not the answer. Actually it is nowhere remotely near the answer. The immediate cost and environment friendly way to achieve lower and sustained energy production would be in the use of Cellulosic Ethanol, or commonly called ethanol made from biomass (NOT CORN). Corn Ethanol as we produce it in the US can never replace fossil fuels because it is costly and vastly inefficient. At best corn ethanol only produces 25% more fuel that the energy used to produce it. By contrast Cellulosic Ethanol made from Switchgrass on average produces 540% more fuel. By the way for those that don’t know what it is. Switchgrass is that tall thick grass that usually gross along the sides of the freeways in the Midwest and along tree, and crop lines. We tend to cut it down and burn it so the area looks prettier.

    FYI there are a lot of BS websites out there that claim switchgrass isn’t that good, but I tend to go to the science experts for scientific information. You know like Scientific America.

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn

  • Bill Hedges

    Melvin–The new ethonol is not yet here. As far as I know..Cars can not run on 100& ethomal. We have to use oil now. No other choice. Alterate energy, absolutely. But, we can not spent $700 billion a year in foreghn oil and have jobs too. Detroit can not make enough alternative cars to replace all our gas cars in near future. But please correct me. I am not a expect in this field. Use of Alaska pipe line is ending. If supply for it drops too low, no flow

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin–I believe I heard McCain mention France method of re-use nuclear matterial at convention

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin–I read your article. It seem to be lacking. Can this ethonal be used 100 % as fuel for car. Old stuff can not be used in boats, it causes damage. Does new stuff cause damage to cars. What % can be used in car. Old stuff can not be used in pipe line. Can new stuff be used in pipe line. If not, can not replace oil for a very long time. Would required many, many, many plants to go nation wide

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin- Forgot- Nothing was said it was ready. Did I miss that?

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin–In the army, I was a 55G20

  • Melvin

    Bill Hedges,

    Again you are correct cars produced in THIS country can not run 100% ethanol, but they can run a blend that is high enough to where we could end all oil imports and even lower the amount of domestic drilling. Yes the technology for biomass refining is already running in a refinery in Carthage, MO. that transforms the remains from the Butterball Turkey Plant into Motor Oil. The DOE also has already planned a November ground breaking for the plant in GA. that will produce ethanol from forestry waist.

    So to answer your question about older engines and pipe lines refineries like the one running in Carthage MO. can produce oil for standard gasoline engines that can not handle any form of ethanol blend, and still require no drilling, and also helps eliminate land fill.

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin — I am still confused. Can new ethonal be transported by pipe line. You must understand the imporants of that to open it up to entire contry. And is there enough turkey plants to do it

  • Melvin

    Bill Hedges,

    Well to answer your question. Yes Ethanol can be transported by ceramic coated pipelines which are very cheap to produce since the world has mastered carbon fiber production.

    The Butterball plant is just an example of the waist that the refinery can transform into oil. The Biomass waist into oil refinery can turn Almost all waist in any landfill into Oil, for cars that can not currently run ethanol.

    Yes I said almost all waist in any landfill. That means we as humans produce an unlimited supply of material for oil production already, and have millions of tons of landfill waist already that can be used.

    By the way the refinery has been running for years waiting for government approval to expand and build more.

    Here is a link to the refinery that is already running.

    http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2004/Changing-World-Technologies4apr04.htm

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin– It is great to turn waste into fuel..So this new ethonal can not be transpoted in our present pipe line. So oil is still going to be needed as well as drilled, in the forseeable future

  • PeoplePower

    Babs – I’m not sure where you’re getting 2006, but no biggie.

    I misunderstood the purpose of posting the URL to McCain’s warning of Fanny/Freddy.

    However, you and Bill have used it as some sort of negative for Obama in your arguments. If your only intent was a feather in McCain’s cap – well done. It is somewhat of a feather, but again, as not being the primary sponsor it may not have been he who first raised red flags.

    I’m not looking to split hairs here. I just want to clear up your arguments that Obama had anything to do with it dying in committee.

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin–So human waste, could be fuel

  • Bill Hedges

    People–Babs and I never said Obama stopped it. We said while Obama was in Senate he knew about problems with Feddy and Fanny. Mccain did not start the bill.YOU ARE RIGHT

  • PeoplePower

    Melvin – I am rather skeptical about the story of turning waste into oil, and certainly at the rate the guy claims it can be done with the clean biproducts produced – spring water?

    Umm, sounds like a perpetual motion machine to me!

    Check out the link to commentary from the same site you led us to:

    http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2005/Changing-World-Technologies-Palmer9apr05.htm

    Also, check out the link to this chemist’s book. It is a related story and probably one we could benefit from reading:

    http://www.gettingtozerowaste.com/

    As for Nuclear – we *should* use Nuclear Power, but *only* if we can clean it up (esp. the ‘waste’ rods) further. It can provide a great deal of power.

    What really needs to be done is using scientists & engineers to look at each method of energy production for the upsides and downsides – what are the costs? Do they scale well? What are the byproducts (including all types, like low-droning sonic waves generated by windfarms)?

    We should find the most scalable, least negative-impacting energy sources and really pound on them.

    And yes, although the chemist in the above links is pretty negative on biomass conversion, biomass certainly *might* have viability.

    But let’s lean towards *known* technologies first – switchgrass is a good one.

  • Melvin

    People Power,
    It is not perpetual motion in the slightest it is using what you produce to power future production. That is how all current Oil refineries work now. Most oil refineries in this country only connect to the power grid as a back up. Wonderful isn’t it.

    I also agree with you that switchgrass is currently our best bet for energy that is completely renewable. As far as that refinery in Carthage; Yes I have read all of those other articles, and visited the refinery myself as it is only a couple of hors from me.

    You have to keep in mind that if you owned a multi billion dollar company and you saw a new technology that would start seriously eating into your profits you would hire anyone you could to cast doubt on the new technology. It happens in every industry not just energy.

    Thank you also for bringing up the sonic waves produced by wind farms that most of the world seems to want to ignore. That also proves thee point about using scientist to say a better technology isn’t as good or ready yet. Cylindrical Windmills have been found o produce far more power with a smaller geo footprint, and cheaper to produce, with Zero sonic waves permeating into the ground around them, but industry scientist that work for a producer of windfarms claimed the technology wasn’t quiet ready and wouldn’t be for decades, while at the same time The Science Channel, and Discover were doing reports on the breakthrough new wind production and how great it is working. Our current windmill design though producing cheap power is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Bill Hodges,
    You are missing the point that the Lite Crude that the Waist to oil plants produce can go through our current pipelines. Ceramic coated lines are only needed for future transport of pure ethanol. 100% ethanol burning cars can be produced in this country right now with little to no retooling, as some US auto companies are already selling them to other countries.

  • Melvin

    Bill,

    Yes human waist can be made into fuel. We have been using it and animal waist for fuel since the middle ages. This is just a new way of doing it.

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin —To have new ethonal drynamticly replace oil for America, it must be acessable to America. Not by truck unless you have 10s of thousands of plants. Pipe line has been the normal method. So since this alternative fuel can no go through existing pipe line, it will take a long time to be a major player. You know this. You noticed I did not say it should not be devoloped. All alternative energy should be used. Tech will replace oil. But not for many days.

  • Babs

    “I’m not looking to split hairs here. I just want to clear up your arguments that Obama had anything to do with it dying in committee.”

    Didn’t do that, PeoplePower. In fact, Obama wasn’t even in my discussion of the bill or the statement. It’s not all about Obama to me – in fact nothing is about Obama to me *L* – it was about McCain’s record. Something Obama doesn’t have on the subject, though, now that you mention it.

    Bill, you might want to hit the “register” button up at the top of this page, and register on the website. That way, you can go back into your post and edit them, rather than make multiple posts. Less time and energy on you. 😉

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs- I did register. How do I combine post. It would be useful for correcting some spelling errors to.

  • Babs

    If you’re signed in, there should be an “edit” button on your posts. Click that. But you do have to sign into the website, don’t forget that part. 😉

  • Melvin

    Bill,

    What makes you think it would take 10’s of thousands of Refineries for ethanol to replace oil?

    These are fuel refineries, not gas stations.

    If you meant gas stations then they already exist it just requires adding a new storage tank, or cleaning our an existing one and a new pump.

    I think maybe you should go visit a refinery at least once. Believe me the experience is an eye opener.

  • Bill Hedges

    How will you transport from refinery in Teaxas ethonal to Missouri using the present pipe lines

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin– I lived in Texas Not been to refinery but have seen them. Been at oil rigs and know the smells. Have studied the BP and General electric test hydrogen plant in California. With their idea to put pollution in old well holes. Yes, making hydrogen fuel does pollute.

  • Melvin

    Bill,
    I have never said anything about hydrogen because I agree it is crap the way they are proposing to make it. There are much better production methods but I wont go into that long subject right now. Using oil to produce or even fuel the production of hydrogen is damn laughable. That is just a way for the oil companies to keep using oil as part of the equation.

    Again you are not reading everything I am typing or are missing what I am saying. Refineries that turn waist into lite crude can output directly into the current pipelines, but for even more time and money savings, They can be built right in the middle of our already existing landfills, which then makes it possible for every state that has a landfill to have a refinery. That cuts down on cost of transport and storage. The added benefit is reducing the build up of landfill waist. In the interim of using these facilities pipelines can be laid with the ceramic coating for ethanol transportation.

    Times are changing and we must embrace the new technology. Stop trying to hold on to the old ways which do nothing but cost us all money, life, and freedom.

  • Babs

    Melvin, do you foresee a time in the future when we don’t need any crude oil or refineries at all? I ask because you’re not in favor of domestic drilling if I understand you correctly, and the only reason I could be convinced that drilling isn’t necessary to make us independent from foreign oil and the countries who own that oil is if we can – in the foreseeable future – become completely weaned from it. What sort of time line is involved with the alternatives you’ve been discussing here? I’d really like to know, because what I’m looking at now is more than just the oil we get from domestic drilling, but also the thousands of jobs created in beginning the task. The end result would not be just oil, it would be a better economy from an employment standpoint as well, would it not?

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin–I did not say use oil to make hydrogen. Coal is used to make hydrogen……………..my point Marvin , yes recycle turkey to oil can be in pipe line. That will not fuel America………………………………………..Ethonal can not go in present pipe line……………………. Conclusion oil has to be drilled. Your way is not fisable yet to fuel All of America

  • Melvin

    Babs,
    I am not saying we wont need any oil at all. We just don’t need to drill for any new sources domestically.

    There are just as many new jobs to be created in building and running the biomass refineries as there are in drilling. Actually more because now we also employ more people back into farming the non-agriculture land for switchgrass production. Switchgrass gross in lands that we currently can not use for food sources.

    I’m not for getting completely off of oil right now just off of importing oil, and drilling for more when we have other options that are less intrusive.

    Bill,
    You are stuck on the turkey thing. LOL That is an example of what they are using now in 1 refinery. However we have more than enough landfill waist to produce Lite Crude OIL, that we can fuel the entire country many times over. While at the same time reducing our waist footprint.

  • Babs

    Melvin, so you think that if we implement biomass refineries we could then survive on the amount of oil we’re already drilling without opening new sites, yes? Did you say how long before the boimass refineries could produce the amount of energy we would need to suppliment us to the point of independence on foreign oil? If you did, I missed it somewhere, sorry.

    You make a good point on the employment side. We’ve talked before, I think, about the farming industry, as that is one of the major industries in my area. I think then we were discussing the corn and switchgrass. The employment side of this coin – to me – is the most immediate result we could see from any new energy project, and I’m not seeing anyone make a quick move to do anything. That’s very frustrating for me.

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin–You don’t want to drill. To do that we will have t0 imported oil. You said non corn ethonal was the way to go.. But that can not be put in our present pipe lines. So to make that viiable for all America you need 1,000s refineries or a new pipe line to service all of America……you rendering oil is fine. ethonal plants is fine, but it transports it by truck and that limits area of coverage………………… . But oil must be drilled now.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–New ethonal he talks about is great if it works. Made of corn causes high prices. Probleem is pipe line can not transport it. Ethonal is really white lightning achohol. His rendering oil is fine

  • Babs

    Bill, Melvin doesn’t particularly favor corn ethenol, if I’m not mistaken he really prefers ethenal from switchgrass. And according to a lot of reports, he’s right. I think that this is a very viable alternate – for one. Of course, I subscribe to the “all of the above” approach, but I do think that this one is as viable as others. Ethenol from either corn or switchgrass will not cause any higher prices than what we’re paying now for gasoline. Farmers are being paid NOT to grow certain crops, they could be growing these crops on row land (empty farm fields) that are laying dormat and useless at this time. And our government pays farmers to leave them this way. Which is another issue for another time (government controlling our dirt now).

    Drilling for our own oil is the same concept as growing our own energy, and I’m in favor of that in conjunction with other things. Rendering oil is fine, also, you’re right. Remember, all of the above. As to whether it will be expensive, I don’t think that I have the knowledge to say that, nor does anyone else at this point. The concept is still too new to have a practical business plan in place definitively.

    We’ve had the choice for decades now as to whether we want to run our vehicles on gasoline or propane. There’s nothing wrong with having a third or even fourth choice. It will bring down the price of all of it when there is more competition in the market. This is why the oil companies are able to hold us hostage now, we don’t have enough options. And alternatives – in conjunction with the oil we already have – will improve that situation.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs I agree to all forms of energy. Corn as fuel is high. It competes with food. His switch grass , to my knowlege, is not proven. Sugar makes the ethonal as in achocol. Two new corn plants have not opened becaue of price of corn. Ethonal must be used in region where it is made. Because of high truck transportation charges. And pipe line can not be used. If swthch grass works, is will revolutionized ethonal. But to use on national level, 1,000s of plants will have to be built. Which as you said, jobs, jobs, jobs…But corn use is dying. His rendering plan I am not sure about as far as practicability. May work on large scale. Today some land filled harvast gas.leaking from lansdfilled. The oil making part I have little knowledge. He understood me , untill I got into level these two things woud be to stop importing oil. He appears to be against oil drilling, which we are not there yet, or in the near future..You might read comments between him and me.,..You will see what I mean. He had no problem understading me, until recently. We have ben talkng for a few days.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–With corn, only the kennels is used. So cost using corn is high. Comepetes with food. If full plant switchgrass can be used, much lower cost. Plus that grass does not have to be cultivated. Wow..If this works, IF, what a windfall for America. A cheap gas additive. With the cars we have , ethonal can not be more than 10% I believe. But new cars might change the % to who knows !!!! A deep secret..Right now, high gas is wanted by envionmentalist. Alernative energy is costly. Th cheaper the oil, the less use of alternative enrtgy. This is why no drilling on government leased lands. Not because oil companies will not drill. They can’t. Regulations stop the.. Then law suites

  • Melvin

    Babs,
    I understand your desire for increasing farming as I moved from Los Angeles to Kansas City; I am currently in the Midwest and now pay more attention to how policies effect the farming industries. That is yet another reason I support Biomass Ethanol. Switchgrass leaves our food stock supplies alone which brings the cost of food and animal feed back down. It can be grown in the row land as well as the non prepared edge lands. add that with the fact the refinery technology is already perfected and running. The US Department of Energy is already helping fund the construction of 6 of the plants. The first one in GA. is the plant set up to convert logging waist biomass into fuel.

    I am not 100% against drilling, what I am against is the proposed method and time frames. The latest proposal from Exxon/Mobile stated that it would take 6 to 10 years for their first new offshore rig to get it’s first barrel of oil to refineries. We can employ thousands of people and have dozens of biomass refineries in place in that same time frame.

    I also support nuclear greatly. Being ex Navy I feel it is one of the best options of currently running technology. Though I do feel that instead of forming new rods, we need to start recycling and reconstituting our current waist rods.

    I feel importing oil is bad for our economy and national security period. Allowing any country to have any form of hand in our national energy supply is just not good for America.

    Bill,
    I have no idea why you think we would need 1000’s of refineries for Biomass, or cellulose ethanol. Do you not understand the scale of refining possible with current technology? We would actually need smaller and less refineries than we use for oil. Oil refineries have to start from an already ignitable input material and convert it to several other materials. With biomass, and cellulose the input material is farm, or waist material and therefore safer to handle, also if a truck of grass spills on the road it doesn’t hurt the surrounding environment.

    We only need a few dozen refineries and the type can depend on the location. Put waist Biomass refineries in areas with larger cities where there are larger landfills, and Cellulose ethanol plants in areas anywhere else. We don’t have to worry about transporting large amounts of Ethanol long distances by truck because we can transport the switchgrass to the areas that have the refineries much cheaper and safer. The lite crude can be transported by existing pipelines. using both methods increase jobs, and take us away from foreign oil.

    This does not mean we will get completely off of natural heavy crude at all because we can still use it for other products, but we will need much less of it which will lower prices and still allow for profits. As long as there are humans we will use heavy crude but if we can get biomass and cellulose plants running now let’s do it. If you want off shore drilling then do it, but don’t wait for it when there are other things we can do in the interim to lower fuel costs. So in 6 to 10 years when the new offshore plants start producing we are not stressing for it and sitting at $20+ dollars a gallon. It will just be extra fuel added to the mix while we continue to enjoy moderate prices, and a country free from the middle east oil cartels.

  • Bill Hedges

    Marvin –It will not take 6-7 years for new oil to flow. If regulation on present land leased is removed, that can be quicker oil. Intrastruct exisit in la. and Alsaka, that oil can flow quickly. Oil will stop if pipe line flow drops brlow 300,000 barrel a day. losing 20 % of Ameerica’s daily oil flow. I have not read that your grass is proven yet. I have explained many times about 1,000 of plants. You can not put alclhol in pipeline. Moving it is only practical in small area by truck. Thus —-to cover the nation—- 1,000s of plants would be needed.. No doubt about it. As far as rendering oil,I need to see the practicality of that and volume possible…

  • PeoplePower

    There are a few big problems that most of you seem to be missing:

    1. Any new drilling would not produce a drop of oil for years (Melvin mentioned this, though I think 6-10 years may be overly optimistic) – so we would still be importing 70+% of our oil for a good while

    2. Any oil we do drill for doesn’t go into our supplies, it goes onto the world market. If OPEC/Venezuela/Russia decide to be jerks (insert stronger word, per your tastes), they can cut their production to match our extra output – still keeping prices high

    One thing you seem to be keenly aware of is that we need to stop importing oil. We are paying for both sides of the wars we fight by our excessive consumption and dependency on foreign oil. H*ll we indirectly funded Al Qaeda by driving SUV’s and running our A/C and heat at all times…

    I am all in favor of the “all of the above” approach, but the problem with “drill, baby, drill” is that it will lessen our motivation for the “rest of the above”. We seem to be bent on having everything we want but not paying for it…that needs to stop.

    The *best* way (for the people, but *not* the oil companies) to get off our dependency on foreign oil is simply this:

    Every drop of oil produced by American Oil Companies gets sold to AMERICANS first. We use what we use and if they have anything left over (unlikely), they can sell it to the world market.

    If we get the American Oil Companies to agree to this *and* to a reasonably discounted price, I would echo “drill, baby, drill”, because the value of doing the “rest of the above” would still exist + the oil companies could generate more oil for us to add to our supply, keeping their costs down and our prices down…

  • PeoplePower

    Babs – what edit button? I’m registered and I have yet to see an option to edit my posts…

  • Bill Hedges

    People Power- Looking forward to your unique response to Babs and my comments. On Obama and John differing economic views thread

  • Bill Hedges

    People power–You need to read the comments more closely concerning oil. You are following Democrat views which is wrong, wrong, wrong. Just read my comments and learn. Since you believe nothing, look up what I said. I know you have a computer. Have you gone to economic diffences yet.

  • Well there’s a shocker, a rightwing Republican saying Democrat views are wrong.

  • Dreadsen

    Nzpudding

    LOL!! yeah everyone on the other side of the Aisle is just wrong. No sense in trying to win that argument.

    Bill Hedges

    “You are following Democrat views which is wrong, wrong, wrong.”

    So much for your not labeling people. So basically Having a view like a Democrat is wrong.

  • Bill Hedges

    d– you say my name, so you wish to play?

  • Bill Hedges

    D– I use a label rarely, .. Count how many of your comments have labels. Then count how many of my comments have labels. would it be 500 to my 1 ratio. Might be a little lower… so much—–If you had quoted me correctly then ratio would be no big deal. Did I say ….I NEVER USE LABELs……. I rarely use labels. Compared to me, you abuse labels. Do you still want to play. I really don’t. But it is your call. Reaf my comments closely before commenting on me. Details are important.

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    Please show me where I am labeling people. Since i do this at a 500 to 1 ratio that means you should be able to find an abundance.

  • Babs

    Geez, I sit down to read substance, and all I read today is recess antics from kids on every thread.

    See ya next week, when we can discuss real topics again.

  • Bill Hedges

    d–I said quote ” MIGHT BE A LITTLE LOWER..” You stated above,,”so much for you not labeling people”.. You know what labling is. you count

  • Do you mind if I quote a couple of your posts as long as I provide credit and
    sources back to your webpage? My blog site is in the very same niche as yours
    and my visitors would certainly benefit from some of the information you provide here.

    Please let me know if this okay with you. Cheers!