Biden speech attacking McCain as “Bush 44” (Update)

Sometime today, in the state of Michigan, Sen. Joe Biden will be delivering a speech titled “Bush 44,” of course in reference to the Obama campaign’s attempts to paint McCain as “Bush’s third term.”

Report from Politico:

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Joe Biden will deliver a high-profile first attack in a sustained anti-McCain offensive in a speech called “Bush 44” Monday in the key battleground state of Michigan.

While the lines of attack have long been drawn, Biden will assert — as the title indicates — that a McCain presidency would amount to a third Bush term and will focus, in a detailed, comprehensive and aggressive way, on John McCain’s domestic policies and harsh campaign tactics, a campaign aide told Politico.

Biden will deliver the speech in St. Clair Shores, Mich., in Macomb County, the area whose voters inspired Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg to coin the term “Reagan Democrats.” The RealClearPolitics polling average shows Barack Obama with a 2-point lead in Michigan, which Democrats won by slim margins in the last two elections.

The speech is touted as matching the aggressive new strategy the Obama campaign has promised to unleash in the remaining days of the campaign to counter the recent poll gains of McCain and his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.

Biden until now has received considerably less media attention than Palin, in part because his speeches have seemed more intended to appeal to crowds than to make news, and Monday’s speech seems to be intended to integrate him more into the broader campaign strategy and to use him as a super-surrogate to take high-profile hits at McCain.

I think this is the best strategy they could take with Biden right now considering he seems to have dropped from the media’s radar. Give him some tough attacks on McCain which will bring him back into the limelight.

We’ll have video of the speech once it’s given later today…

Update

A few minutes from Biden’s speech:

Still looking for full video.. stay tuned.

Update

The entire 30+ minutes of Biden’s speech:

Good speech on Biden’s part, however, the Lehman Brothers economic news seems to have completely drowned him out of the media. I haven’t seen a single clip from his speech on the evening news, little to no coverage of it. Biden just can’t get a break!

  • Bill Hedges

    Will Biden explain why now McCain will be a 3rd term Bush. Will Biden explain why now Obama should be President. Will Biden expain why now McCain should not be President. Just a few months ago, Plwase explain Biden. Which Biden should I listen to ?. Everything is on video. No mis-quote here.

  • Babs

    I really don’t think they’re getting much response from these misquoted and out of context lines. And I’m SO tired of hearing “out of touch” and “more of the same” I could vomit.

    I caught a clip of Burton this morning (who also makes me want to vomit). You could see the “uh oh” look on his face when he was asked (about the latest ad) if he realized that McCain didn’t work a computer because he lost the dexterity in his hands to work a keyboard while he was being tortured. They didn’t even check that out. When they asked if they were just throwing away the votes of the people who also didn’t know how to work a computer, he stuttered worse than Obama.

    They’re making some big mistakes these days.

  • Stalin

    Babs,

    He also can’t comb his hair or tie his shoes…I wonder if they’ll run a commercial about his hair being messy and shoes untied now. This was a huge gaffe that nobody is picking up on…

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–I agree totally. I saw ex Congressman Texan Graham on McCain side being called I think Banker. I found on this site some will throw together numerous lies. Make harder to answer each. Then using foul language for those that disagree. Facts are ignored, though they ask for facts to be the issue. Now that John has leads in some polls, watch it get worse. John and Sarah must attack

  • Bill Hedges

    One more video clip remark that Biden made. Biden would like to run with or against McCain in the Presidental race. Preaty hard to take that out of context.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    This whole McCain as the third term of bush or McSame aint working for those liberals out there, they need to realize that sooner or later. Whatever though if they want to keep using a message that many dont believe it is fine with me!

  • Jeffords

    Enough of the “he is disabled so he can’t use a computer” defense. There are millions of handicapped individuals in this country that use a computer every day and use it just fine (e.g. Stephen Hawkings).

    McCain doesn’t use a computer because he doesn’t want to, or doesn’t care to. Think people, think. For the love of our country, THINK.

  • DumbonWar

    What amazes me about Republicans these days is they are so selfish and close minded. I have yet to meet a single republican who can look me in the eye and honestly say they are 100% socially and economically conservative. Either they are rich and selfish and economically conservative, or they are jesus freaks and socially conservative, but yet they still vote for both because the other doesn’t matter to them at all. I am centrist on the economy (ala Bill Clinton) and socially liberal (ala any remotely intelligent human being), and I believe that Barack Obama and Joe Biden are the only candidates who come close to meeting this criteria.

  • bdjnk

    Biden is not going to do well making this sort of personal attack, which questions the knowledge and empathy of the man rather then the effectiveness of his policies.

  • bdjnk

    DumbonWar

    I am currently looking for a job and have been having a lot of trouble finding one. Yet I am economically conservative.
    I do not believe in Jesus. Yet I am a social conservative.

    You have just experienced a novel event.
    You have also just failed both your attempts at political profiling.
    Congratulations.

    Additionally, your comment, “and socially liberal (ala any remotely intelligent human being),” is absolutely unsupportable and astonishingly naive.

  • U.S.A.

    Sounds just like he told the truth here. McCain just don’t get it. He repeats this because there are tons of people who like McCain just don’t get. They yell everyday because they keep getting worse but then they support McCain. I know several McCain supporters who gripe everyday because of our current condition but they are so quick to take their pants down and stick their rear end up so they can take more from McCain. They don’t get it! How do you take stupid out of them? The stupid will attack me because of this post I guess.

  • U.S.A.

    bdjnk

    Don’t worry, when Obama gets in office work will find you!

  • DumbonWar

    BDJUNK,

    You don’t believe in Jesus yet you are socially conservative…explain to me why you believe homosexuality is learned, why you are pro life, why homosexuals shouldn’t have the same rights as heterosexuals, why global warming isn’t caused by man…..give me those answers and I will absolutely admit to finding a person who proves my theory wrong and I’ll accept it.

  • freespirit

    the financial crisis is far from over ..we are only at the beginning. To be honest I am suprised that someone like McCain with the economic competence of a first grader, is ahead in the presidential race. Its a shame that Americans don’t learn from their mistakes, they voted TWICE Bush into power…and thick as they are will vote for McCain/Bush politics for a third time!!! unreal..

    Brace yourselves for the hardest economic period in decades….with someone as ‘visionary’ as McCain at the helm it will only make matters worse.

    Ron Paul, is the only fiscally competent politician – however he lacks the necessary presidential assertiveness…which leaves Obama (also economically handicapped yet not as ‘retarded’ as J McC).

    still looks like a lose-lose situation to me…yet Obama/Biden are compared to a potentially catastrophic McCain/Palin ticket, still the lesser of the evil between the two…

    good luck to you guys, u’ll need it..

  • Bill Hedges

    Jeffords—McCain has long history of tech pushing, including Computers. Look it up on your computer. Broken arms and fingers with pain makes it hard for him to do. Yes disabled can use computer. I am disabled.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumbonwar–being a self proclaimed smart guy of Bill Clinton heritage I won’t even try to change your high standards. Bill Clinton fled America during viet Nam War. A Democrat war.. He was found guilty of draft dodging. If Carter had not pardoned him , he would not have been President. During his impeachment trial, he lied. And was lucky to only had lose his law degree. This is the man who you most admire ? O.K.

  • Bill Hedges

    USA AND FREESPIRIT—I am sorry America system of election through popular vote and electorial college upsets you. Move to Russia, China, or Cuba. You might like it better there.

  • DumbonWar

    Bill Hedges,

    How does the fact that he didn’t want to fight and possibly die in a pointless war that was unwinnable (like the current one), and that he lied about a sexual encounter that really wasn’t anyones business change the fact that he balanced our budget, had us in great standing with the rest of the world, and left this country better off than when he took office. He was an outstanding president and it is small minded thinking like that which put the current president in power and could put John Mccain in power as well. Let me guess, you think his time as a POW makes in qualified to be President right…John Mccain is DUMB on WAR! Being a “war hero” doesn’t make him a military genius.

  • bdjnk

    DumbonWar

    The reports of global warming are greatly exaggerated:
    http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html

    I wrote a lengthy reply regarding homosexuality and abortion, but I have decided not to post it due to the intense emotions involved and the flame war it would likely cause.

    Here is a bit of what I wrote, and if you want the rest give me a way to contact you.

    Homosexuals have all the same rights as heterosexuals. What you most likely meant to ask was, ‘why shouldn’t homosexuals have a new method of acquiring the same benefits that heterosexuals often get’.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumbonwar–I don’t expect you to honor laws.

  • DumbonWar

    bdjnk,

    you can email me at tommygibsonband@aol.com

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumbon war—Who balanced budgets ???? Congress…President passes no bills. Check the 3 branches..Executive, legislative, and Judicial..Find out the job of each.. This points out who is small minded and dumb, huh

  • DumbonWar

    Hedges,

    So you are saying that Bill Clinton had no impact on leaving the country with a balanced budget, no impact on the spending and saving of the country….why do Presidents talk about cutting taxes, raising taxes, total revenues…if they have no say in all these things. So the trillions of dollars that we owe the chinese isn’t George Bush’s fault after all…well I guess than it shouldn’t be a problem to put Bush 44 in power after all. It amazes me how people like you can find all sorts of ways to never give credit where credit is due.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumb and now even Dumber– read my previous comment. It’s a fact. Look it up..Clinton passed not one bill as PRESIDENT. NOT ONE…As President, he did sign bills into law. But pased no bills. TRUTH IN POLITICS…

  • DumbonWar

    Hedges,
    Did Clinton have the authority to veto bills and sign bills, therefore choosing which bills pass and which don’t….deciding what is best for the country?

  • Bill Hedges

    Getting really Dumb now— Congress does not send two simular bills and say Clinton, pick the one you want to sign. Not done that way… Clinton did not balance budget. Congress did. Clinton passed no bill… I must say, I learned this stuff in 6 th grade…He can also sit on the bill.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumb–Go to Debate Schedule thread… Read my somewhat long comment , my last one… Read it. With a open mind. See what you think. If you drop your label attitude and insult mammerism; you might find something valid from a different perspective.

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    Didn’t a Republican Congress control the house for the first 6 years of Bush’s Administration?

    You listed some bad things about Bill Clinton but aren’t there some people in power right now who used their positions of power to also avoid the war? And wouldn’t you agree that there are some people in power now who are more guilty then Bill was of lying about a blow job?

  • Bill Hedges

    Dreadsen—Dumbonwar was coming from a diffent view than you are. He stated his smartness, etc….He said Clinton balanced the budget, when Congress passes all bills. Yes Democrats only controled last two years. If you go to Candidate debate schedule tread, read my last comment. It talks about issues that lead to our horrible economic condition. Also spending by Congress has gotten worse thes past two years. Others in Congress may have been dodgers. I just know a convicted feloney can not be President. Unless pardoned as Clinton was. Clinton did not use his power to avoid war. He fled Country. He got pardon using Carter in power.. As far as lying to Supreme court, there is no justification in that. Reason he only lost his law degree instesad of being impeached, is because Constitution did not show that as a impeachable offense..

  • Dreadsen

    Geeze man this Pow card just comes up for everything. For his amount of houses and not having a kitchen when he was a pow.lol! This stuff is great!

    http://www.disabilityworld.org/04-05_04/access/adaptations.shtml

    Excerpt from the Article

    “Are you blind or partially sighted? Do you only have one arm or can’t you use both of them? Maybe you don’t even have your voice at your disposal, or are you – because of disabilities – tied up like a parcel on your bed? Whatever the problem may be, if you can’t use your brawn, use your brain. There are many dodges and tricks in the world of computers. People with severe disabilities also can communicate via computers. Having a look at the virtual world seems to be possible for everybody.”

    You can have no arms at all and use the computer. This is another Pow card deflection.

  • Bill Hedges

    The smartest perhaps sciencist in America found BLACK HOLES. He uses mouth to use his computer. McCain ‘s wife, in there bed, helps him on the computer. I found that to be a warm martial bonding. what is wong in their way. I found nothing..

  • you know what?i’ll bet the farm that most of those first 6 comments aren’t even real people.probably right wing bloggers or worse.no matter.none of them discussed any issues regarding the future of the country in their”comments”.nothing. no issues,just more distractions.ok, so mccain can’t comb his own hair.well i’m happy that someone cares enough to comb it for him.doesn’t have much to do with the future of this country though hopefully…they can’t win with distractions.and they don’t feel that that they can win the other way i.e. on the issues that matter to the country.and let’s face it on some subjects both mccain and palin are sorely lacking.at least on the other side you have most of the bases covered.by the way i’m a registered independant and i’m real… so stay off my tip-peace

  • DumbonWar

    Hedges, So once again you are implying that Bill Clinton had absolutely no impact on the success of the country during his term in office. Also, Clinton was impeached, just not punished…being impeached means being brought up on charges nothing more….and I stand by my original point…social conservatism is an inherently stupid ideology….as is religion…

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    Didn’t Cheney dodge the war? I mean a dodger is a dodger isn’t it? Bill Clinton has actually done way worse things then these charges you bring up. But in comparison to what is going on now Bill Clinton is Abe Lincoln.

    Another point. George Bush has never vetoed any pork spending bill. George Bush may be the most liberal president since Johnson.

  • DumbonWar

    Hedges, So once again you are implying that Bill Clinton had absolutely no impact on the success of the country during his term in office. Also, Clinton was impeached, just not punished…being impeached means being brought up on charges nothing more….and I stand by my original point…social conservatism is an inherently stupid ideology….as is religion… oh and Hedges…as to your other thread…
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/weekinreview/23stolberg.html

    enjoy

  • PeoplePower

    This is ridiculous! The McCain supporters sit back and watch the Straight-Talk Express derail with each half-truth or full deception and continue blindly supporting McCain. A “Conservative” at whatever the cost, eh?

    And yet, their biggest complaint about the Obama supporters is that they simply want a “Liberal” in the White House. Could it be that Obama’s supporters *like* his policy ideas? That we have a rational view of sound economic policy that includes oversight (as opposed to the Republican S&L crisis – and John McCain’s “Keating 5”).

    Look at the plans laid forth. Will Obama raise taxes? Yes, on *some* people, but 95% of the country will get tax relief.

    Look at Obama’s ideas about talking with Iran and withdrawing from Iraq. If they’re such awful ideas, why did the Bush administration (apparently your hero) begin talking with Iran and staging withdrawals from Iraq?

    The trickle-down theory is a *failed* economic policy, unless of course you make millions each year, then it’s fantastic.

    Study the economic ebbs and flows of this country as compared with who is in power. Democratic control – country does better. Republican control – country does worse. Are you cheering for the country or just the excessively wealthy?

    All boats rise, or stay even, under the Democrats. The few luxury cruise liners destroy all of the the skiffs & little boats around them under the Republicans.

    Republicans scream foul – “Government out of my life!” And yet, they so completely lack empathy for the less fortunate amongst us that they want to ruin welfare (a safety net for the down-and-out), destroy Social Security (a safety net for the elderly and infirm) and take away a woman’s right to control her own medical decisions. Oh, but wait, Corporate Welfare is completely okay…

    McCain was an honorable man before 2006. He *was* a Maverick. He *was* a fighter against the horrid policies of the Bush administration.

    Then, he decided he so badly wanted to be President, he chose to use vile tactics and pick a poor executive (look at Wasilla’s debt & the scandals that are becoming public) who’s big on social conservatism to attract the “base” that he had fought so hard to oppose.

    If the John McCain running in 2008 were the same as the one who ran in 2000, I’d have a hard time not supporting him. Especially if he had chosen a less radical VP candidate. I’m quite certain that this was what was running through Joe Biden’s mind when he said he’d run with McCain. The full implosion of the Straight-Talk Express hadn’t happened yet and they *are* friends.

    These are real and valid criticisms of his policies and his political smearing of Barack Obama.

    I’m sure, deep down, he’s still got that Maverick in him. It’s just been snuffed out by his intense power-grab. And I have no doubt that he loves this country, but he has some very bad policy ideas and is mimicking Bush in very many ways.

    And for those of you who get all pissed off and tell me to move to another country because I don’t agree with you, try this on for size – I am a bigger patriot than you are. I *love* my country *despite* it’s flaws. I can look her squarely in the face and say, “this is wrong” and *still* love her…try a more rational approach next time.

    Oh – and apologies to you rational and reasonable Conservatives (and, oft-times, Republicans). You are not the target of my “vitriol”. You have some good ideas and are willing to *discuss* them rather than throw stones. I will *always* discuss things with you…even if we can’t always find a happy-median. 😉

  • FSB

    I think I finally figured out what amazes me about Republican supporters.

    It seems they actually believe they are apart of the “elite”.

    Who are these people? Have they not lost their job? Have they not come close to losing a home? Do they not have trouble paying bills? And if none of that applies, can they, at the very least, not see the fact (and it is a fact) that their dollar isn’t worth as much as it used to be. I’m not even talking about inflation, I’m talking about the $150 that doesn’t buy as much anywhere, anymore.

    Even if I was comfortable (making $250K/year, which I’m not), I’m intelligent enough to see this trend right in front of my face.

    Why are people protecting and supporting Republicans who couldn’t care less about them?

    I just don’t get it.

  • Christopher Schwinger

    McCain does not love this country when he talks of forming a league of democracies. That goes against everything the Founders stood for, which was INDEPENDENCE instead of alliances with other countries.

    What do you all think about the rumors that Biden will be replaced by Hillary?

  • Babs

    Dumbonwar, this Bill Clinton you’re touting as the greatest President ever… Would this be the same Bill Clinton that I made the mistake of voting for? Would that be the same Bill Clinton that ran rough shod over his marriage in the Oval Office? Would this be the same Bill Clinton that was impeached?

    Dreadsen, I’m surprised at you – using your copy and paste keys to post the same message on two different posts. Are you using that old theory, too?

  • Bill Hedges

    dUMB A–…i STAND CORRECTED ON MEANING OF IMPEACHED. I do not blame our education system for your flaws. I blame your lack of education on workings of government. You will protect your weakened polititical stance and firing back with obceneties…I am lowering my comentd to your level lower. I shall not do that. Woe to those who can not see.

  • Bill Hedges

    DREADEN–You are ignorant…I said Bush VETOED a Iraq War budget..1/3 of which was pork. Congress re-did it and passed. It was done under Democrat control Congress.recently..YOU SAid THIS DID NOT HAPPEN—your wrong…Your brliefs are so strong you can not see truth. Ask Babs about this pork, if you dare. Look it up, if you can. Instead, you may laugh at my spelling or whatever. Anything, but your oum ignorant ideas. I respect the views of others. But not name calling., unless it is at a name-caller.

  • Bill Hedges

    Obama is rated #1 most liberal in Congress.. Biden is rated # 3

  • Bill Hedges

    FSB–The only true Americans are DEMOCRATS..

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumb–When I looked IMPEACHED up, it stated it was two stage process. It also said it was common that people make mistake on the meaning ofimpeached. So I am a average guy.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs– what is the copy and paste key ? I have needed to use that, but don’t know how.. Not here of course..

  • Bill Hedges

    Veto is used sometimes for a excellent BILL. As in contracts, the reason for a veto my bE found in the fine print. McCain said at Convention, he will VETO bills with PORK. When PORK is taken out, he will decide on the bill. He will inform the AMERICAN PUBLIC who added that PORK, no matter his party. When Bush vetoed Iraq war bill, 1/3 was PORK. PORK is a major waste of our money.

  • Bill Hedges

    Dumb–I can understand you don’t want to respond to my commenT on thread, Candidat schedule ..It still at the bottom with no responsE from you.. Respond with no provanity, no labels, NO SUPERIORITY, and no insults. Use reason and facts. This is called RESPECTFUL debate or discussion. Debating in this matter can open line of communication among those that differ in belief. Discussion your way, closes..Most people don’t listen to points made in the gutter.

  • frapp

    The real issue is the economy. And the with this crisis the economy and the american workers are in danger. I think Obama is qualify to face the situation and bring positive change. I’m very confident about that.

  • Bill Hedges

    Democrat only bill for energy plan is working its way through the House now. The Republicans are trying to get $1.2 Billion pork issue for New York out. But lost..The $1.2 has nothing to do with energy….Committees have not seen this bill, or Republicans until today, when going to vote process..Is not normal proceedure. No nuclear, NOT SURE ABOUT COAL, drilling is still restricted as has always been. The vast amount of approved oil leases now, can not e drilled because of regulations and lawsuites. Not because oil company does do want to drill. Thank THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, DEMOCRAT..I am watching c-spam. LIVE NOW

  • FSB

    It’s WAY off track, but since someone brought up his name.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bc42.html

    During the administration of William Jefferson Clinton, the U.S. enjoyed more peace and economic well being than at any time in its history. He was the first Democratic president since Franklin D. Roosevelt to win a second term. He could point to the lowest unemployment rate in modern times, the lowest inflation in 30 years, the highest home ownership in the country’s history, dropping crime rates in many places, and reduced welfare rolls. He proposed the first balanced budget in decades and achieved a budget surplus. As part of a plan to celebrate the millennium in 2000, Clinton called for a great national initiative to end racial discrimination.
    __________________________________________________________

    Sounds very impressive to me.

  • Babs

    To me as well, but consider the fact that we were enjoying peach and economic well being when he took office. He didn’t bring it about, he inherited it.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill Hedges – you talk of pork as if only Democrats add pork to bills.

    The problem is *not* the Democrats OR the Republicans. They both blow money like it’s water. The difference is that the Democrats tend to pay for it by raising taxes and the Republicans tend to borrow it from future generations.

    Defecit spending *can* be good. Debt *can* be good. But this is *only* true if the thing(s) paid for add value. Think of owning a house – if you take out a 2nd mortgage and have a wild week in Cancun or Tahiti or Vegas, you’ve added debt and no actual value. On the other hand, if you take out a 2nd mortgage and put an addition on your house, you’ve added debt *and* actual value. The latter is much, much more fiscally sound policy.

    Spending our tax dollars on infrastructure and internal programs to strengthen our country as a whole adds a lot of value. Spending money on tax cuts for the wealthy, corporate welfare and weapons programs adds little, to no, actual value.

    The Republican Congress under Clinton eliminated the Pay-Go rules. As such, we started hemorhaging (sp?) money and things began collapsing from there. Congress has been spending like drunken sailors since then and Bush only found his veto pen with the stem-cell bill and, more so, now that the Democrats have taken power. Where was he when the Republicans were blowing our money??

    But the *real* problem is the *system*.

    As much as we want to piss in the wind about who did or did not do this thing or that, it’s meaningless and it will get the country no where!! It will, in fact, generate even more partisan battle cries that further serve to ruin this country.

    We *need* to come together as a country. The PEOPLE need to stop electing people who answer to special interests more than to them.

    We need to reform election law to provide for specific times to air political conversations and issues-related discussions and *ban* political ads.

    Political ads need to provide the most bang for the buck and so they tend to be polarizing and include partial truths that are hard to prove as being hyperbolic raging at the recklessness of the other candidate, let alone shown as false enough to be ignored.

    Providing *free* air time to candidates should be a part of the FCC license every station must acquire to broadcast.

    It will provide a platform where candidates can get their messages across and will allow a run for office to be done by average Americans and NOT require sucking up to industries or special interests to raise millions of dollars and thereby buying a seat at the table of power.

    If I ran a billion-dollar corporation and gave significant money to support a candidate, I would *expect* better access to that candidate than average Joes. It’s a part of our capitalist system that equates money with power. I don’t blame the companies for *trying* to buy a seat at the table, I just think it should be illegal.

    But more so than corporate donations, lobbying should be eliminated altogether. Or, at least, special access for lobbyists should be eliminated.

    I don’t expect that I should have automatic and easy access to the President so he/she can hear my grievances. The President would never have time for anything but hearing from each of us. But I also don’t think Exxon or Microsoft or General Electric, etc., should have the President’s ear.

    Democratic people are not your enemy. Republican people are not my enemy. It’s the Independents… LOL – just kidding.

    We are all Americans. The way that Congress, and the Government in general, operates is our problem. There’s simply too much money changing hands in order to get something that they all become out of reach to regular people.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill Hedges – I’m tired of hearing from partisan right-wingers that I am not patriotic and should leave the country if I don’t agree with George Bush or John McCain or the Republicans.

    I don’t remember ever seeing a “leftie” tell the “righties” to leave the country if they don’t like the Democrats or Obama. I guess that’s an option, but I’ve not seen it written.

    So, your sarcastic “only Democrats are Americans” is ridiculous. It invalidates any salient points you may have made in any given thread.

    If someone goes into the gutter in their arguments with you, try staying above the fray and win the argument by being civil and making good points rather than joining them in the gutter…

    This really goes for everyone – the moment you say, “you’re stupid because…” your argument gets lost in foolishness.

  • FSB

    Babs…that argument never ceases to amaze me.

    It seems no President has ever done anything. It’s always the result of the prior President.

    No Babs.

    Clinton had 8 years. Bush had 8 years.

    The difference is striking.

    The opening paragraph for George H. W. Bush doesn’t even compare when listing accomplishments.

    George Bush brought to the White House a dedication to traditional American values and a determination to direct them toward making the United States “a kinder and gentler nation.” In his Inaugural Address he pledged in “a moment rich with promise” to use American strength as “a force for good.”

    In the end…when is credit given when credit si deserved. It should also be noted that these statements are not mine and not partisan. They come directly from http://www.whitehouse.gov

    You may attribute the nations success under Clinton to someone else, but that doesn’t make it so. It’s just not logical.

    If the Nations success under Clinton is not attributed to Clinton and you want to attribute it to G.H. Bush, are you then implying that the failings of G.W. Bush are because of Clinton? If so, I suggest you stop posting and go find a book titled “Against All Enemies: Inside America’s War on Terror” by Richard Clarke.

    Everyone is too busy saying, “Hooray for our side” that no one in America wins.

  • Bill Hedges

    A poor man does not open a business that provides jobs. Small business may be $ 1/2 million.You want to tax these folks more. I agree with PORK. It comes from both parties. Only McCain promises to veto all Pork. And tell the American people who added that PORK. Right now in the HOUSE, Republican tried to stop $1.2 billion PORK from energy bill. Republicans failed. This PORK has nothing to do with energy. Intrastructure needs rebuilt. But…America is broke> Let’s follow Democrat demands, pay as you go..Money from Social security and Transportation have been robbed or spent. They are broke

  • PeoplePower

    For the record, some things I heard from McCain during his acceptance speech are things that I *hope* get instituted no matter who wins:

    Raise the red flag on pork spending *and* point out who is adding the pork, regardless of party.

    Demand accountability and efficiency from the government agencies – publishing budgets, promoting sound use of money and penalizing waste.

    I worry that neither of these will actually happen under McCain though. He’s taken an awful lot of money from big industries and big religions. It will be difficult for him to fairly axe pork spending for those he has obligated himself to.

    I’m uncertain of the percentage of big industry dollars vs. small-donor dollars the two candidates have raised. Although, I’m fairly certain that Obama is much more tilted to the small-donor side. Then again, with the addition of Palin, McCain may be balancing the sources a little more, but I’m certain it’s still skewed towards industry over people.

    The old saying, “Federal aid means Federal interference” cuts both ways, “Corporate donations means corporate interference”. I mentioned this in a prior post, but I don’t begrudge the companies their desire to have a seat at the table. We just need to make it a situation where the corporations can’t put in that kind of funding.

  • Bill Hedges

    Peoplepower–Your labeling is stupid. I AM CONCERVATIVE if I must be labeled. Labels is excuss not to understand a person. To me, it is a form of racism….

  • Bill Hedges

    Look John up on internet. He is well know fighter of PORK.

  • Bill Hedges

    People–I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD LEAVE THIS COUNTRY

  • Bill Hedges

    People–Since you do not run a $ billion business, you do not know what John McCain would do if you gave a donation,if anything. Maybe a free coffee cup.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – sorry to be unclear. I wasn’t saying *you* were a partisan right-winger, though your arguments have tended to be along those lines.

    I also didn’t mean that *you* told me to leave the country.

    I’m just tired of hearing that. And hearing from similar angry righties that I’m not patriotic. By saying all people of one group are something, and by me being in that group, means it’s being said about me, even if that wasn’t really the intent.

    By you saying “only Democrats are Americans” you grossly generalize any Democrats’ arguments as being blindly one-sided. And you are saying that I only agree with Democratic ideas and ideals, another gross generalization.

    I agree with you about labels. They do amount to bigotry. I describe myself as a left-leaning independent, but even that doesn’t fully capture all of me or my viewpoints. I tend to vote Democratic more than anything, mostly because I am strongly opposed to the social conservative agenda and they have their hooks too strongly in the Republican party.

    John McCain *was* a fantastic Maverick in a lot of ways. The trouble is, he has changed his tune and has turned to the harsh partisanship of the Bush tactics. They were vile when Bush used them against McCain in 2000. They’re vile now.

    As for poor people starting companies, I agree. Though, the SBA has money to lend to minorities and low income people (or did have, before the Bush partisan appointees used the SBA money for big companies). But the rich don’t automatically turn around and start a company with the money they get from trickle-down economics. The trickle never happens the way it is intended. It’s a failed policy that needs to be let go. Even if it kind of works, there are much better policies that more strongly support the general welfare of the nation, over the welfare of the few.

    Obama is not going to tax small businesses! I’m not sure where that’s coming from, but it’s not true. But I’m sure he will tax businesses, and if a small business (people-wise) is making huge profits, they’ll be taxed, as they should.

    Obama plans to close loopholes that reward companies for sending jobs overseas and who use offshore addresses as their headquarters in order to hide from taxes. It’s anti-American to hide from your responsibilities to this country and any company doing so should be steeply penalized.

    Obama will do a great deal of good for the country – at home and abroad. At the very least, I trust him and his policies more than I trust McCain’s. And as I’ve said before, were McCain still the Maverick he was in 2000 *and* had he picked a more moderate VP, I would be very torn as to whom to vote for and would probably be completely fine with either one winning.

    If McCain wins and returns to his Maverick ways, there’s a decent shot that he will make a great President. But I will be praying every single day for his health and well-being…

  • Bill Hedges

    People–John wanted to take Government money for this race. …….Obama did not……… John dropped Government money in order to keep up with Obama hugh donations. Looks like Obama did not want limitations by accepting government presidental matching fund. John acceted it, but forced to drop. Tell me who is more controled by special interest ??

  • Bill Hedges

    People.. I did not call you a democrat. I call Congressmen democrats..That is what it says under their name as I watch them on C-SPAN.. ……………………………………………..You missed the point wnen I said ONLY DEMOCRATS ARE AMERICANS.In my comment I pointed to a specific person..FSP…My comment was directed at him. His remarks were octragious above mine. ..As if RRepublicams were the slime of America. I was making fun of FSP…..We are all Americans

  • Bill Hedges

    People ..you speak of harshness. Obama ad about computer is harsh and totally corrupt. Physcially , inclung pain, he is limited. He is not computer illeterate. He and his wife use computer together. I have not heard any truth being assigned to this ad by anyone. John has pushed for spreading tecnology.

  • Bill Hedges

    People .. There are neutral places that will compare John and Obama Tax affects on business or whatever.. Look it up and make you personal, independet, judgement of their validity.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – I’ll have to check the numbers, but I think it would be McCain still.

    If I’m reading the numbers correctly on

    http://www.campaignmoney.com/

    Obama has received 0.01% of his money from PAC’s (counting corporations, etc.) and McCain has received around 0.8%. That’s 80 times more than Obama has received.

    The funny thing here is that it also means both are receiving an insignificant amount from these groups. Whereas the rest of the money is roughly split between donors giving less than $200 and those giving more than $200.

    Obama is at roughly 52% from the over-$200 crowd and the rest from less-than-$200 crowd (minus about 0.02% from PAC’s and Indian tribes).

    Whereas McCain is at roughly 63% from the over-$200 crowd and the erst from less-than-$200 crowd (minus about 0.8% from PAC’s).

    Looks to me like Obama is receiving more money from regular Joes than from well-off people.

    Obama is also receiving almost 2.5 times the money McCain is receiving. So, not only are regular people contributing at a higher percentage to Obama’s campaign, they are contributing in very high numbers.

  • Bill Hedges

    People The nature of this election would lead me to think Obama get more donations from Backs and college kids. I draw no conclusion from that. I am not a poll person, but understand McCain is leading in some. As a resonable attemping person, some of Obama’s ideas I agree with.. But I will give you my personal reason why I will not vote for him..Please excuss if my #’s are off. His wife worked for hospital making $125,000. Obama becomes Congressman. Obama adds pork to bill for that hospital,, around $ million. His wife becomes Vice President, making like $350,000.. Obama said in Paper $125,000 is not a living wage. Fortunetly, the bill containg this pork failed. You can find this on interent. Something like,,,Obama pork belly spending for wife hospital. Again, some of my # my be wrong…

  • Bill Hedges

    People–Tax plan of the two candidates are looked at to see the effect it would have on tax payers in different tax brackets. Try looking that up. I have seen them. Gives a comparason.

  • OBAMA_SUCKS

    Peoplepower maybe republicans always say that to you because Liberals always try to find bad things about our country and always talk about thebad things and how bad this is and that while Republicans tend to still have a good liking for our country and usually talk more on the positive side of things than liberals do.

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    Dude calm down man you seem like you have a lot of Rage. I came into here thinking a lot of people were posting only to see it is only you. I can just picture you turning from red to deep violet while shaking your fist at the computer. I hope you don’t flip a table and tear your shirt.

    I did not call you any names. So why do you claim that I am a name caller?

    I would like you to comment on the other things I outlined in the last post as well.

    Of all the pork how much has George Bush vetoed? With out looking I will guess that this bill you are talking about with all the pork for Iraq still get passed just with less pork than it had before.

    As far as taxes Obama’s covers 81% of the entire country. I know they keep on saying 95% but it is debatable. John McCain is also going to add a tax to payroll health care. A tax which did not exist before.

    Babs

    Your thread was more appropriate than this one. I didn’t see it at the time. I’ve done that before. I’ve seen Todd do it with 1000 word posts! lol.

  • Dreadsen

    O.S.

    The difference is when Bill Clinton was in office the same things you claim the liberals say about the country are the same things Republicans said about Clinton. The difference is right now Republicans want to make things look like it’s peaches and cream because their guy is running the executive branch. And I didn’t see average Liberals saying that the reason why people questioned some of the horrors of Clinton was because they were unpatriotic and they should leave the country. NO only your type do that . Just look now. Bill Clinton’s legacy is being portrayed as bad. Why don’t you stick up for him and say that things were just beautiful?

  • Bill Hedges

    Deadsen–Complain to NATE on me. Let him decide which one of us does the name calling, bad language usage, and insults

  • Bill Hedges

    People–according to O’reilly. Fanny mae donated $85.000 to Obama campaign

  • Dreadsen

    Bill

    “DREADEN–You are ignorant…I said Bush VETOED a Iraq War budget..1/3 of which was pork. Congress re-did it and passed. It was done under Democrat control Congress.recently..YOU SAid THIS DID NOT HAPPEN—your wrong…Your brliefs are so strong you can not see truth. Ask Babs about this pork, if you dare. Look it up, if you can. Instead, you may laugh at my spelling or whatever. Anything, but your oum ignorant ideas. I respect the views of others. But not name calling., unless it is at a name-caller. ”

    Look at all your accusations man. You say you respect the view of others. Where do you get this I have beliefs so strong that I can not see the truth?( may be pot calling kettle here) Where do you get this from? Where have i showed an intolerance to the truth? You say you respect the views of others but you call my ideas ignorant? You bring up name calling when i have not called any names. Point out where I called you a name. I never said anything about your spelling where do you get the idea that I am laughing at it?

  • Bill Hedges

    yOU SAID BUSH DID NOT VETO THAT BILL. YOU WERE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

  • Stephanie

    Where is Palins finacial information. The reason why they are more of the same is because they are more of the same . Personally I want a President that knows how to work a computer, tie his shoes and comb his hair. We already had one that never reads the paper or listens to the news and we all know how that turned out.

    I am sick of Palin talking like she is a puppet, unable to say new words. Hillary didnt make 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling for this woman. Obama knows and teaches the Constitution… wouldnt it be nice to have a President that knows our laws instead of just making up at he goes along! YES!

  • OBAMA_SUCKS


    *** Nuked ***

    Note from Admin: Even when you censor yourself, such gratuitous language isn’t appreciated.

  • Bill Hedges

    According to Hannity and Colmes. McCain in 2005 wanted to reform fanny and freddy. Said they were not finacially sound. They had article stating this. Was stopped by democrats

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    Okay fine if i’m wrong i’m wrong. But you ignored everything in my last two posts. So please address them.

    O.S.

    Then admit that Obama and Palin are both worthless puppets on a string so you will be excluded from the fan club of hypocrisy. Can’t say he is worthless for the same case which can be raised with Palin.
    After all of the rallies Obama and Biden talk with reporters ONE ON ONE where ever they go. Palin will not. All the statements regarding Palin notice the campaign releases on her behalf. They are speaking for her. They won’t let her speak for herself.Of all the terrible things i have seen leveled her way i am surprised she won’t defuse them. I think it’s safe to say if we do a side by side comparison of who is the worse puppet Palin will win by a landslide.
    And don’t forget Bush tried to appoint a pro choice judge once and it didn’t work. People also hope that McCain gets in so he can appoint new justices. Same point can be raised with him too.
    Obama is a Constitution Law professor by the way this is a fact. From Factcheck.org

    “Sen. Obama, who has taught courses in constitutional law at the University of Chicago, has regularly referred to himself as “a constitutional law professor,” most famously at a March 30, 2007, fundraiser when he said, “I was a constitutional law professor, which means unlike the current president I actually respect the Constitution.”

    http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/was_barack_obama_really_a_constitutional_law.html

    Are you still laughing?

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    correction i didn’t say that he didn’t veto THAT BILL in particular. I stated that he never vetoed a pork spending bill.
    I guess I was wrong on that. But did the bill eventually get passed anyway? And if it did was there still pork on it? If so then I am right.

  • Bill Hedges

    the 1/3 pork was removed, then passed. Your previous comment twisted my comments. If that continues I will not repond to you. Was every single bit of pork removed, how would I know. If that makes you right, that is really pushing hard to be right. Accept you made mistake and continue. We all err. Sign of healthy self

  • Dreadsen

    Bill Hedges

    ““DREADEN–You are ignorant…I said Bush VETOED a Iraq War budget..1/3 of which was pork. Congress re-did it and passed. It was done under Democrat control Congress.recently..YOU SAid THIS DID NOT HAPPEN—your wrong…Your brliefs are so strong you can not see truth. Ask Babs about this pork, if you dare. Look it up, if you can. Instead, you may laugh at my spelling or whatever. Anything, but your oum ignorant ideas. I respect the views of others. But not name calling., unless it is at a name-caller. ”

    Didn’t you post that?
    You are accusing me of some things in here aren’t you?
    You brought up name calling so i only asked you where did i call you a name.
    You are taunting another poster in another thread for not debating with you on facts as fast as you like, now you don’t want to clear things up with facts here?

    Now this is what i posted

    “Another point. George Bush has never vetoed any pork spending bill. George Bush may be the most liberal president since Johnson. ”

    Well no you just misunderstood my point. Pork gets by because he lets it by. McCain says he will never let a single bit of pork get by him. I dont think Bush ever made someone remove all of the pork off of a bill.

  • PeoplePower

    O_S – Not all Republicans have the line “leave the country”. Only those who have lost points to make.

    Talking about what is wrong does not mean “I HATE this place because X, Y & Z are wrong.” It means, “X, Y & Z are wrong. Why don’t we fix them?”

    If someone did not like this country because X, Y & Z are wrong, they certainly could leave. OR they could try to change those things that are wrong.

    It is very much the case that *CLEARLY* they love this country because they *STAY* and want to make it better.

    What’s wrong with making something that is good, better??

    Of course, Dreadsen brings up an excellent point about the Republicans crucifying Clinton and complaining bitterly about how “bad this country has gotten.” And, indeed, I’ve never heard even my most lefty-liberal friends say that they should move…

    The point I have been trying to make over and over and f*ing OVER again has been that we need to work together to resolve our differences in order to make this country a better place. Nobody wants to pay 80% taxes and few rational people think we can run a country by paying no taxes; though there are ways, but they’re generally not fiscally sound and *someone* is paying taxes (i.e. tariffs are taxes on other countries and were used to entirely fund the Federal Government for most of our existence).

  • Bill Hedges

    i SAID i WOULD NAME CALL THOSE THAT NAME CALLS PEOPLE. yOU DID THAT TO OTHERS. BEFORE I WROTE THAT. i NEVER SAID YOU CALLED ME NAMES. AGAIN, YOU ARE TWISTING MY WORDS IN ORDER TO BE RIGHT. I SAID IF YOU DID THAT AGAIN, I WOULDN’T RESPOND TO YOU AGAIN.

  • Bill Hedges

    HI People

  • PeoplePower

    O_S – I will refrain from the all caps response as a shouting match is just plain silly & it’s harder to read…

    On the “Palin as Puppet” issue –

    When a McCain campaign staffer (communications director?? I can’t recall) comes out and says that Palin will do interviews “when they feel the press will treat her with respect” it appears strongly that there is a problem.

    If, God forbid, Palin ever becomes President, will she tell foreign leaders and dignitaries (sp?) that she will only talk to them if they’re nice to her?

    If she can’t take the heat, she should get out of the kitchen!!

    If you think that Obama has the same mettle as her, you’re being excessively partisan. He could spar with any wordsmith the Republicans threw at him. Some, certainly, would outshine him, but most would be lucky to equal him.

    On the Supreme Court –

    I’m sick to death of hearing how “Liberal justices legislate from the bench.” First off, this makes it sound like Conservative justices do not. Although I do not have the entire judicial record in my head, I am quite certain this is not the case.

    It is simply an argument to say that you don’t want justices appointed who will make decisions you disagree with. Why don’t you simply say that?? Then, at least, we can begin an honest discussion of the problem.

    Judicial decisions are based upon more than just the Constitution. They must be, as the Constitution does not provide for every conceivable law or circumstance that is possible.

    It is the foundation of the law, but not the only source of laws. Congress makes the laws and the judiciary decides of those laws are constitutional. What if there presently isn’t a law made by the Federal Government that works its way up from a municipality through the appeals processes until it lands on the Supreme Court’s desk??

    Should the Supreme Court shrug their shoulders and say, “Uhh, we can’t decide because it’s not written directly in the Constitution?” Of course not. I don’t think anyone would suggest that. So, what must they do??

    LEGISLATE FROM THE BENCH.

    Aha! And it doesn’t matter if the court is right-leaning or left-leaning or whatever. They still must rule on the case.

  • Bill Hedges

    pEOPLE–If you want courts not to legislate, but wants judical to follow the Constitution. Most argued point is abortion. Your right, not all things are not in Constitution. So the argument is Judges should not have decided The ROE CASE. Supreme court did not have to take that case. Let the state legislate abortion. Not the court.

  • Dreadsen

    “If, God forbid, Palin ever becomes President, will she tell foreign leaders and dignitaries (sp?) that she will only talk to them if they’re nice to her?”

    ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Dreadsen

    Bill

    I did not twist your words to be right. I could raise the claim that you were twisting my words when you came up with a bill and claimed that i was referencing that one bill in particular when i was just talking about pork getting past the president. Sometimes people misunderstand people but it doesn’t mean that they are making a conscious attempt to rebut a distortion. You referred to me at the top of the post then you talked about name calling so i assumed that you were talking about me calling you names. Who did i call names in this thread?
    And still the first two posts i responded to you i didnt get a response on the other issues.

  • Bill Hedges

    Look, you wish to win. I showed you the veto. You need not accept responsiblity. I give up. no more response

  • PeoplePower

    Okay – so now we’re making some progress. “It’s largely about Roe v. Wade”. It’s a States’ rights issue vs. the Federal Government.

    The Federal Government should include laws that set the bar for the minimally acceptable level of protection for the common welfare of all people.

    As such, the question becomes one of “should abortion be legal?”

    My Conservative friends often argue that people can “vote with their feet.” As in, if they don’t like the laws in Nebraska, they can move to Iowa. The problem is, it’s not that easy for people to move, especially the lower income people; but also now for any middle class person who owes significant money on their house.

    I recently lost my job to a down-sizing (sadly, a common story these days). My house dropped significantly in value care of the housing crisis. In looking for a job, there have been really good opportunities in other states, but I can’t afford to move. I am stuck in my house until I pay the mortgage down enough and the value goes up (again) enough so that I don’t lose my shirt trying to sell it. And this also means I can’t go after those really good opportunities elsewhere, but must find something potentially as good here.

    And I had a good job with a good salary!

    How could I possibly vote with my feet? I can’t. And there are many millions more in my situation or much worse off.

    So, the whole concept of voting with your feet is not a reasonable solution.

    So, states’ rights need to be tempered carefully with what’s best for the overall common good.

    As for abortion, I don’t know of anyone (even among my most liberal friends) who has ever said “abortion is good.” The freedom of choice is what the Pro-Choice crowd is in favor of – and choosing to keep the baby *is* one of those choices, just ask Brystol Palin.

    I know there’s an argument against the morality of ever having an abortion. Well, I’m sorry, but they will happen whether they are legal or not. I’ve said this before, but daughters of privilege will go to private doctors or be flown to wherever they’re legal. Whereas, daughters not of privilege will use coat hangers in back alleys and possibly die or do other things that are even worse – suicide, doing drugs/alcohol in an attempt to abort, etc.

    Certainly some will choose to keep the baby, but it’s not always the best choice to make. Yet, it is *still* they’re choice (between them, their doctor & their God).

    Not every person holds the same beliefs that others do. To some, abortion is a horrible crime that goes against their God. To others, it is a necessary evil that isn’t preferred but must be available.

    So, is abortion being legal a necessary thing for the common welfare of the country? I would submit ‘yes’.

    Children having children results in more poverty. More pressure on the economics of the country. More issues with crime as poverty rises & hope fades. More discrimination against women, as they are forced to have children and lose their jobs or education in order to care for the child, especially when the father runs off.

    An unwanted child will be neglected, abused, impoverished or even killed. That child would likely grow up with issues of its own. Though, that is certainly not always the case, it will certainly have a more difficult chance at achieving the American Dream. The mother certainly will have a very difficult time achieving that dream.

    So, as voting with your feet is very difficult and allowing abortion is better for the common good than forbidding abortion – the Federal Government should set the bar at “abortion is legal.”

    Programs such as Planned Parenthood (started or strongly funded by Nixon, for the record – one of the many good things he did for this country) discuss all available options with the women who use their services. I would be very surprised if someone advocated for an abortion, but as I am not a woman, and don’t presently have a girlfriend or wife, I have never had to use their services and can’t speak to the strength of that statement.

    By discussing all options, they can allow for the best choice to be made by the woman in question.

    And isn’t that one of the biggest desire of conservatives? Government stay out of my life and let me make my own choices!!

  • Bill Hedges

    People–Yes, Republican basic belief is smaller governemt. Oppisite for Democrats. On abortion I am old enough to remember back door abortion..Personal, I am for legal abortion and choice.. Did that suprise you. Saying that I believe women who got very mad at Sarah for not getting a abortion for her special child,did so out of guilt. Guilt because they had a abortion. And would feel justification for their action, to know Sarah had a abortion. You know, safety in numbers ..This is my personal feelings…

  • Bill Hedges

    People– I do think there is a point that abortion should not occur. Pre-birth abortion is wrong.

  • PeoplePower

    Please explain Bill. “Pre-birth abortion is wrong.”

    I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

    As for Sarah not having an abortion with her last child, that was her option. I’m sure there may be some who thinks she should have and perhaps you’re right that they’re trying to build the ranks of others who’ve chosen to abort. But I can’t speak to that and I’m not sure you can either.

    And, yes, it does surprise me that you would be in favor of keeping abortion legal. It’s not a common stance for conservatives. I also know a very conservative person who is an atheist. That, too, surprises me.

    But it may also surprise you to know that I think war is sometimes necessary. I think that excessive environmental protections can go too far in punishing companies. I also think that people should be allowed to bear arms of their choice – in reading (and re-reading) the 2nd Amendment a part of me argues that we should be allowed to own a tank! 😉

    Still, war should not be fought without due cause and should be the last option. It’s a major issue to even use the word when discussing foreign policy or meeting diplomatically with our potential enemies – hint at it w/o coming out and saying it.

    Also, some environmental legislation is necessary or the corporations will do what is natural for every human to do – the minimum necessary to comply with the regulations. So, the minimum regulations should be fairly stringent but not so punitive & excessive that it’s impossible to do business.

    All this means is that the talking heads who try to pin us all down to one side or the other are very much missing the mark on who we are…

    Also – I really don’t think that Democrats think “big Government is great.” I just think they believe that government has a role in the lives and well-being of the citizens.

    Small government was really pushed through with Reagan, as well as de-regulation, and has continued (sort of) to this day.

    Small government has brought us the S&L crisis, the housing crisis, Katrina (and now Ike seems to have caused issues with government institutions) and the collapse of the financial agencies (Bear Stearns, Freddie/Fanny & Lehman, etc.).

    A larger, more engaged, government doesn’t guarantee these will never happen, but that they are less likely.

    I look at it this way – if an efficient FDA is inspecting the pork industry and whatever agency that inspects restaurants is doing their job efficiently, I can go to a restaurant and eat a pork sandwich w/o it being Russian Roulette with my life. Or, at least, the odds are *greatly* minimized that I will get sick and/or die.

    This is another important aspect about electing the best President for the job. They appoint the cabinet heads for the various agencies. If we get any more akin to GW Bush, who has appointed more lobbyists, cronies and “buddies” than anyone since Warren G. Harding (I think it was Harding), we will have a very difficult time simply managing the country, let alone another nasty hurricane or terrorist attack.

    One of the big differences in this election, for me, is who will listen to the people if they raise up their voices and shout? The President works for us afterall. We have a general situation here – Republicans tend to believe in Presidents who “stick to their guns” despite contrary public opinion, whereas Democrats tend to believe in Presidents who will listen to the people (right-wing talking-heads call this “poll watching”).

    We need a combination of both. Someone who will *lead* us and *inspire* us to agree with him when we may not initially. But they also need to listen to the people when the people are highly-unified and cry out “do this” or “stop that”.

    I trust Obama to lead *and* to listen to us. I think McCain may very well lead, though more in a “my way or the highway” method of GWB than I would like to see. I also don’t think he’ll listen to us.

    It’s okay to not listen to us, but tell us *why* and persuade us that you’re (the President) right.

    We are, afterall, a Representative Democracy…

  • Bill Hedges

    People–Pre-birth abortion, as I understand it, is abortion righ before normal birth. As I said about woman against Sarah having her last child, that was my personal opionion. Not necessary true. I would like to finish answering your remarks, but I am getting tired. I have had diabtes for 23 years. I tire and my mind slips away. So, hear from you tomorrow.

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – Is that the “partial-birth abortion” thing that was banned a few years ago?

    That’s a tough one. My understanding is that the doctors only use that in situations to save the mother. I think it’s important to save the mother whenever possible.

    I don’t know the medical science behind it, but if it is truly *only* used to save the mother, than I think it’s an appropriate option for the doctors to have.

    If this is not what you’re thinking of, than let me know.

  • Bill Hedges

    People Power– I am sure you are right. I watched a show on it. It could easily been years ago..I think with medical tech baby could be saved in most emergency when to save mother life. You know they operate on fetus in womb now.! I worked in hospital and saw some small babies

  • Babs

    “If you think that Obama has the same mettle as her, you’re being excessively partisan. He could spar with any wordsmith the Republicans threw at him.”

    If this were the case, People, I don’t think Obama would’ve boycotted Fox News for 9 months, but whatever.

    On Roe V. Wade, the left would have women believe McCain wants to abolish abortion by abolishing Roe V. Wade. It’s been a favorite talking point for many on the left. But it’s not true. Abolishing Roe V. Wade in no way abolishes abortion, it’s not even about abortion, really. It’s about returning the issue back to individual states where it belongs, and getting the Federal Government out of our bedroom.

    “Small government has brought us the S&L crisis, the housing crisis, Katrina (and now Ike seems to have caused issues with government institutions) and the collapse of the financial agencies (Bear Stearns, Freddie/Fanny & Lehman, etc.).”

    Are you saying here that Bush is runniing the country with small government? I thought the opposite was the standard argument of Democrats.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–At covention wantedJudges to ….not legislate…If done that way, Roe vs wade would never occurred, the States could decide the issue. That is McCain view,,,just as you said..I saw last night that Clinton actual affected the regulation of the fallen institutions.

  • Babs

    Bill, I’m sorry I missed your question in this thread about the copy and paste function. Here’s how to do it. Highlight the text you want to copy by clicking and holding down your mouse pointer while dragging it across the area to be copied. You’ll see it “light up” on your screen. Then hold your mouse over that section, and RIGHT click. A menu will pop up and one option will be “copy”. Click that option. Then go to where you want to paste the text, (left click on the exact place to put your pointer where you want it to go) and then hit your RIGHT click again. Click the “paste” option and your text that you copied should appear there.

    Stephanie – “Personally I want a President that knows how to work a computer, tie his shoes and comb his hair.” It’s a very crass thing dig at the disabled, and no matter how much we argue with each other, we just don’t do that here.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–Thank you for that help

  • Babs

    No problem, Bill, any time. 😉

  • Bill Hedges

    Obama was against hekping AIG. Today, he was for it to protect the people with insurance from that compamy. The problem with his statement is insuance money was in separate fund and in no danager..

  • PeoplePower

    Babs – see my comments about “voting with your feet”.

    In a lot of things, I believe states should have the right to establish laws more stringent than the Federal Government, but some things must be accepted on a Federal level because voting with your feet is not a reality.

    As to the ‘small government’ thing. I want to be clear – the agencies, such as the FDA, EPA, FEC, etc., are headed up by leaders appointed by the President. I’m not sure if the President appoints all of them or most of them or whatnot.

    The Republicans (Congress & Executive) held sway for 6 years and the government did, indeed, bloat up. The bloat was largely due to cutting taxes during wartime (unheard of and irresponsible!) and increasing spending both for the wars and for pork barrel garbage (like the bridge to nowhere that Palin *did* support before it became politically expedient to refuse it – yet, she *still* kept most of the money for it! How’s that being fiscally responsible?).

    However, while that was happening, these agencies had their budgets cut severely back, had cronies and poorly-qualified people in charge of them (heckuva a job Brownie) and had politically-biased people in power.

    The combination of horrible leadership, limited budgets and partisan decision-making has led to some of the most reprehensible management of agencies that *need* to be efficient and effective for the well-being of the country.

    While I think it’s important to make sure that the agencies aren’t being wasteful, I also think it’s critically important that they aren’t making things worse by their actions or inactions.

    I fear that McCain will try too hard to make these agencies “lean” that he’ll butcher their effectiveness even further, which will be admittedly difficult to do after the hack job Bush has done to them.

    I don’t think Obama is simply going to jack up their budgets to crazy levels. I think that there’s a lot of hype making people think Obama is going to hyper-liberalize things. I think that’s very false. Although, I do *expect* he’ll bring things back towards the center again.

    If you think that McCain will not make things hyper-conservative, than you should equally not think Obama will hyper-liberalize…

  • Babs

    People, there’s plenty of evidence to show McCain will not make things hyper-conservative – decades of it. There is no reason to believe Obama will NOT hyper-liberize, given his short record and high minded promises.

    I found it laughable that Obama attacked McCain for suggesting a commission, when Obama himself has a pretty lengthy record of calling for commissions himself.

    Bill, last I heard Obama wouldn’t give an opinion one way or the other on AIG, and was taking some flack for it in the press?

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–I thought I heard it on the news. I may be mistaken.

  • Babs

    Bill, I think you’re referring to McCain’s stand. He WAS against bailing out AIG, and on good principles. When the bail out came anyway, he conceded that there was apparently no choice because millions of regular people stood to lose too much, but he still didn’t like that it had to be done.

    Obama nor his camp would issue an opinion one way or the other last I heard concerning the bailout. He was taking some grief from the media about it, they were saying he had to have an opinion at least, he couldn’t just vote “present” on this one. But as yet I’ve not heard an opinion from him or his surrogates.

  • Bill Hedges

    Babs–I knew McCain did. Sarah said it at a Town meeting yesterday. I saw a segment of it on T.V. last night. Obama may be keeping his mouth shut because of the two EX FANNY AND FREDDY EXECS on his pay rolls. At least one got into trouble over cooking books to get bigger bonuses at fanny or freddy…

  • Babs

    Those two on his payroll are economic advisors, and one of them headed up the commision to select his VP. *LOL* I think that’s why he’s keeping mum to a large extent, he doesn’t want to open that can of worms.

    On a side note, this was a bit funny to me in the news this morning:

    “We have a lot of targets of opportunity in states that were Bush states in 2004,” Axelrod said. “We expect to battle right to the end.” He also said Obama has started preparing for next week’s first of the three campaign debates that will help Americans decide.

    “He’s been doing a lot of reading,” Axelrod said.”

    I don’t think I would have made that last statement if I were Axelrod, great talking point for the McCain camp. *Obama has to do a lot of reading before he can debate McCain – how’s that for experience* *ROFL*

  • Bill Hedges

    I started watching FOX NEWS, because of Sarah’s interview. Tonight you can see her home if you watch. Is \ FOX NEWS considered left Conservative “I hate labels”. On Fox it was pointed out that Obama has one of the biggest Campaige staff in history. I believe it is affecting him. teleprompter as one example. If true, getting upset over repeated e-mails being sent him asking for his vote for himself. He has all this donation he must collect to continue, he is being bought plus the pressure. $ 8 million last night from the ELITE HOLLYWOOD CROWD. And yes, his staff should not have mentioned the reading. But to be fair to the guy, he could be boning up on McCain.

  • Bill Hedges

    I am watching CSPAN. Alaska used to pump 1.5 million barrels a day from the pipe line… Today around 750,000 barrels today. When it falls below 300,000 barrels a day, the flow will stop. Pipe will clog up.CLOSED Until a new pipe line can be built. That will end 20% of America’s oil pumped supply.. One small area that AlAska has that we want to drill, has estimated 19 billion barrels of oil. Not counting the natural gas.

  • IndiMinded

    Bill, out of curiosity, when you say 20% of America’s pumped oil supply, do you mean 20% of the pumped oil used by Americans, or 20% of the oil on the global market that originates from America?

  • PeoplePower

    Bill – sure, Obama met with Hollywood Celebs. But that doesn’t mean McCain is free of pandering…his VP pick was a pander-pick.

    McCain has met with plenty of Oil Execs, big company execs, industry insiders – those with golden parachutes that the rest of us built.

    Just because Celebs *tend* to support Democrats does not mean that big-money people are ignoring the Republicans.

    They’re just getting money from less well-known names, so it doesn’t stand out as much.

    Back off of the “elitist” stance. You *have* to have (and raise) an exhorbanant (sp?) amount of money to run for office in this country. You can’t run an effective campaign w/o big money donors!

    I’ve shown you the numbers – McCain has taken in 80 times more money from PAC’s than Obama. Plus, more of his overall money has come from “big donors” (over $200) than Obama.

    Who’s been bought?? Probably both of them.

    But that’s okay, keep it all one-sided as if McCain is perfect…

  • Bill Hedges

    People power–You call it one sided, I do not. Truth hurts. $23,000 a plate is not average Americans. Elite fits. As you check the treads, You will find cmments fromm Babs and me

  • Bill Hedges

    20 % of all oil produced each day comes from Alaska in America

  • Bill Hedges

    People power–I have been watching, but so far you have not gone to Comparing 2 candidates economic plans thread..Bring you word skills there and give your wonderful style to answering Babs and me. Looking forward to reading it

  • I now understand what Dreadsen was on about with the posting one liners comment.